4th Seaforth Highlanders

[tstewa]

Im researching the battle of Cambrai especially on the 21st of November the 51st attack on Cantaing and Fontaine Notre Dame.

If anyone has the 4th Seaforth Highlanders Battalion war diaries for this period would you be able to tell me if there is any reference to the KIA being buried next to a small church in Cantaing and the erection of a memorial?

Thankyou

Toby

[sotonmate]

Toby

The War Diary ref is WO95/2888. It is not digital so you have to hope that someone has the bit you need,otherwise you could download it. From the many War Diaries I have looked in I can't recall any where they have specified where burials have taken place,merely the number of dead. Any memorial might have come after the Armistice.It is possible that any graves of the time were lost in later fighting over the same ground.I also note that the FLESQUIERES HILL Brit Cemetery, in the same area for 51 Div attacks of the same time,have over 300 graves for the unidentified.

I note that there is a CWGC cemetery in CANTAIGN but solely for 1918 casualties.One 6 SH casualty I chose at random is remembered on the Cambrai Memorial so doubtless there are many others there too.

I am wondering if the German burial records found at the Red Cross in Geneva will have any say in casualties of this time also. They will be fully published in 2014.

Sotonmate

[headgardener]

I have to say that this doesn't sound like the sort of thing that is routinely recorded in war diaries.

I've got the 4th Bn history, and there is no reference to a church in Cantaing. I wonder, though, if this is what you're after; it's certainly the only reference to burials during that period (on p.255).

"Captain 'Ray' Macdonald and some of the fallen were buried in Orival Wood, between La Justice and Flesquieres, but the majority could not be buried, and lie in unknown graves. On the anniversary of the battle the following year the Battalion marched to Fontaine and erected a cross at the western end, on which were recorded the names of all who were known to have fallen in the battle. Some of those who were reported missing were not included, because there was still reason to hope that they might yet be found among the returned prisoners of war. Owing to the enormous price demanded for the site, and the high cost of maintaining the monument on the spot, it was decided after the war to bring it to Dingwall, where it now stands, just outside the station. As the original cross has perished, a new one had to be put in its place".

It is possible that the war diary does contain some reference, though I don't have a copy. Maybe also try Brigade or Divisional diaries, or the diary of the Field Ambulance serving that Brigade or Division. It sounds as though it was a very hard fought battle, and it doesn't sound as thought there was much opportunity to bury the casualties. The 4th Seaforths moved on from that immediate area, so the reference to the erection of a memorial after the war certainly makes more sense than one erected in the heat of the battle. The battalion history makes a couple of references to the Regimental Aid Post, though it doesn't say where it was, nor does it mention burials. You could also check where all the 4th Seaforth casualties from this battle are buried or commemorated. Might give you some further info.

[tstewa]

Thanks headgardener & Sotonmate

It was worth a shot!

My main reason for asking was mostly due to trying to find a possible burial location.

My Great Grandfather was a 4th gordon and was killed during the attack on Cantaing, in a record for him and Cpt Skakle there is reference to them being buried in a small cemetery created by the Battalion just outside the entry to Cantaing. I thought Id see if there was any reference to the site in any of the other Battalions records.

I have been in contact with a local historian in Cantaing and he believes that they were buried beside a small chapel just on the outskirts of the town.

Its apparently the same chapel where the cross was erected to commemorate the 4th Seaforths which was then moved to Dingwall.

I will get some one to have a look at the 154th brigade & 51st Dicvision diaries as well as the Field Ambulance attached to the division for me, its not so easy from Australia.

Anyway thank you very much for your help and i appreciate your replies

Thanks

Toby

[4thGordons]

Toby

I may be able to help with the 51st Div records - I copied a lot but I am not sure which sections I have - I will check.

In response to your email - I am scanning the relevant section for you.

Chris

[tstewa]

gday Chris

That would be terrific thankyou very much.

Toby

Toby

I may be able to help with the 51st Div records - I copied a lot but I am not sure which sections I have - I will check.

In response to your email - I am scanning the relevant section for you.

Chris

[4thGordons]

From Falls: LIFE OF A REGIMENT p 170

"On November 21st a patrol of the 7th Gordons passed though and reached the second objective. A company was sent on its heels and other battalions also closed up. The situation was thus restored, but the delay had handicapped the British in their race for Bourlon Wood with the reinforcements which the Germans at once set in motion. It is only fair to say that the delay might have been longer but for the active patrolling of the 153rd Brigade, especially the 7th Gordons. During the advance to the second objective the 6th Gordons took four guns and howitzers of various calibres and the 7th Gordons eight.

The advance to the final objective, the Marcoing-Graincourt road, was now carried out with little difficulty and at very slight cost. Patrols towards Cantaing, which was protected by a good trench system, found the place strongly held. The 154th Brigade was ordered to break through these trenches, known as the Cantaing

line, and capture Fontaine-Notre-Dame, east of Bourlon Wood.

At 6.20 that morning the 4th Gordon Highlanders and 7th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of this brigade had moved forward in column of route from the old British front line in which they had spent the night. Again there were signs of the sort of mental paralysis which the hold-up seems to have brought about.

The battalion halted an hour before it received word that the way through Flesquieres was clear. Then it moved on and made touch with the troops of the 152nd Brigade, from whom it learnt that Cantaing was holding out. At 10.30 the Gordons went through to the attack.

At first they were held up by machine guns and wire and another delay occurred, the front remaining motionless till about noon. At that hour half a dozen tanks appeared and broke into Cantaing. The Gordons went in at top speed behind them. The greater part of the village was quickly taken with many prisoners, but a pocket of Germans put up a splendid resistance, which was not overcome until 3 p.m. The haul of prisoners amounted to nearly 300, while the casualties were exactly 100.

The Argylls were unable to advance on Fontaine simultaneously with the Gordons because of fire from Anneux on their left. When, however, the 62nd Division took this village, the battalion moved on. Fontaine was secured without resistance from within, but under fire from Bourlon Wood. A few civilians were found in the village.

Whether or not Fontaine could be held depended to a large extent upon whether or not Bourlon Wood could be taken. It was not taken on this day, and on November 22nd, after the 4th Gordons had been relieved, the enemy recovered Fontaine after very fierce fighting."

This would seem to suggest it might be worth checking the 7th A & SH Diary too? That does not seem to be digitised either.

EDIT:

I am not familiar with the sorts of records that might have been maintained by Tank units or reports by tank commanders but those may be worth a look - I am sure there is someone here who could help with those.

Chris

Edited 19 August , 2010 by 4thGordons