could this be the same man?

[basiloxford]

Hello everyone,

I'm researching the men on a Great War Memorial in Oxford, and i've come across a man named Thomas Bradley Holden. The problem is, after an exhaustive search through the local newspapers of the time, and other documents, i cannot find any mention of a Thomas Bradley Holden living in this area.

According to the CWGC and Soldiers died in the Great War, the only Thomas Bradley Holden is this man, aged 25, he served with the 10th Battalion Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) with a service number of 13674. He was killed on the 23rd of August 1917, and he was born and enlisted in Burnley, Lancs.

I've seen an obituary for the Burnley "Thomas Bradley" in the Burnley Express, and it makes no mention of him ever being here in Oxford, although with that combination of Christian names, i suspect they could very well be the same man.

My question is, is there anyone on here who may have any information at all on either Thomas Bradley Holden, especially if it could prove a link between these two men.

Any help would be very much appreciated,

Barry.

Ps, I've also done a search of birth records between the years 1870 - 1905, and the only Thomas Bradley Holden to appear is the Burnley man who was born in 1892.

[roughdiamond]

I take it there's no sign of a marriage? I believe that some parents made the CWGC registration and omitted spouse's because they'd re-married.

There's also the possibility of Siblings living in the area, maybe a married Sister?

Have you tried the local reference library or the Council's History Officer to see if there is a record of applications for inclusion on the Memorial?

Sam

[GrahamC]

Hi Barry

I'm researching my local Memorial (Buxton, Derbyshire) and like you come across men whose link to the town is hard to establish.

The only Thomas Bradley Holden on the 1911 Census is living with his grandparents at 26 Albert St., Lytham, born (March qtr) 1892 and working as a 'Shipyard Driller'. Not likely to have gone to Oxford as a student or for work I'd suggest!

He was born in Burnley so would certainly fit the SDGW & CWGC databases.

I've checked both marriages lists and can find no Thomas BRADLEY either before or after 1915 and not a single Thomas getting married in Oxford shire - there are lots of Thomases but all seem to be in Lancashire/Cheshire area.

There is one possible link that may be worth pursuing - the 1901 Census has a Thomas (aged 9) living with his parents, Napoleon and Martha Ann (which matches the CWG notation). In 1911 Napoleon and Martha + other children are still in Oldham (51 Latimer Street), but father Napoleon's employment is 'Police Officer'. Is it possible that he moved with his job to Oxford by the time the War Memorial went up and so wanted his son on the Memorial??? Or retired? (He was born in 1850)

Doesn't help much I know but might help with where NOT to look - seems like you have the right guy - just wrong place!

Good luck

Graham

[basiloxford]

Hello Sam and Graham, Thanks for the replies,

Yeah, i have looked for a possible marriage, but with no success, and the Burnley Obituary doesn't mention a wife either.

The War Memorial in oxford is on a Church which is still active, and i've approached the administrator to see if they have records from this time, but it appears that most have been destroyed, and they have no info on the individual men at all.

It seems that now they are a very "forward thinking" Church, and that the past don't seem to mean very much too them, so-much-so, that they apparently sold a Wooden Reredos which was the second part of the original Memorial.

The thought about a relative living in Oxford has crossed my mind, and the Police angle may be worth persuing.

It's a bit frustrating really, but there must be something somewhere that will give me a clue as to his identity.

Regards,

Barry.

[apwright]

I think I've found the Oxford connection!

First, though, Thomas Bradley Holden was NOT the son of Napoleon and Martha, but of Joseph HOLDEN (b Horbury, Yorks, c.1867) and a different Martha Ann (nee BRADLEY, b Burnley c.1870).

They married in Burnley in Q1 1889.

1891

6 Allerton St, Habergham Eaves, Burnley

HOLDEN Joseph, Head, 24, Gas Labourer, b Horbury

HOLDEN Martha A, Wife, 21, Linen Weaver, b Burnley

HOLDEN Emily, Dau, 2, b Burnley (later dies, probably before 1901, certainly before 1911)

2/3/1892 Thomas Bradley HOLDEN (born 6/2/1892), son of Joseph and Martha Ann, christened at Habergham Eaves, Lancs (Ancestry E&W Christening Records).

c.1893 birth of a sister Ethel in Burnley. No christening record found for her.

1901:

Martha, Married, 31, is living with her brother Arthur BRADLEY's family at 30 Kime St, Burnley. But Joseph is not there.

Ethel HOLDEN (age 7) is probably the Nurse Child (deleted, Boarder overwritten) listed with Mr & Mrs John LEACH at 18 Cotton St, Habergham Eaves.

I can't find Thomas or Joseph.

1911:

Thomas is living with his paternal grandparents, Charles & Sarah HOLDEN, in Lytham, as noted by Graham above.

Martha (41, married 22 years, 3 children, 2 still living) and 18-year-old Ethel are at 35 Riding St, Burnley.

And where's Joseph in 1901 and 1911??

In 1911 he's at Cowley Marsh, Oxford, apparently married to Rose for the last 12 years with 3 daughters (Edith 11, Rosie 8, Ivy 6) and a son (Fred 4), the first two born in Oxford, the second two in Lytham, Lancs.

He is listed as 43, a GPO telegraph wireman, born in Horbury, Yorkshire.

The Lytham connection (his parents live there) and his date and place of birth strongly suggest this is the same Joseph!

So, was he a bigamist, a divorcé or an adulterer? (Can't find a marriage record for Joseph Holden and Rose anywhere in E&W between 1897 and 1900!)

Hope this helps!

Adrian

[Will O'Brien]

So, was he a bigamist, a divorcé or an adulterer? (Can't find a marriage record for Joseph Holden and Rose anywhere in E&W between 1897 and 1900!)

Hope this helps!

Adrian

Have found a record of a marriage between Joseph Holden & a Rosa Slatter in Oxford in the June quarter of 1901 (Rosa Holden is also listed as dying in 1936) Their eldest daughter Edith's birth is registered in the September quarter of 1901 so perhaps it was a marriage of necessity

[GrahamC]

Well done that man - better be careful how you write this one up, Barry !!!

[apwright]

Thanks Will, I'd just stumbled across that myself.

If this is them, then "married 12 years" was a bit of a fib in 1911, perhaps to mask the fact that Edith HOLDEN was born in the same quarter!

Adrian

[Will O'Brien]

Thanks Will, I'd just stumbled across that myself.

If this is them, then "married 12 years" was a bit of a fib in 1911, perhaps to mask the fact that Edith HOLDEN was born in the same quarter!

Adrian

Adrian

They wouldn't be the first. My own Great Grandparents were economical with the truth when it came when they were married to legitimise my Grandfather who was born 3 months after.

[basiloxford]

Wow; you guys are amazing, thanks for all that info.

I think that i've now found the father, as i've found a Joseph Holden aged 31, from Burnley, living at Gas Street in Oxford, and he's claiming to be a widower.

There's also a Thomas Holden living at the same address, but he's 90 years old, although i think that age is a bit suspect, and i've got a feeling it's really 9,

with a funny looking naught added. Nine would be about the right age for his son Thomas.

Gas Street was just around the corner from the Memorial that i'm researching, and i suppose that the father may have been living in the same area during the War.

Well i've certainly got a lot to look for now,

Again, many thanks to you all,

Regards,

Barry.

[apwright]

i've found a Joseph Holden aged 31, from Burnley, living at Gas Street in Oxford, and he's claiming to be a widower.

There's also a Thomas Holden living at the same address, but he's 90 years old, although i think that age is a bit suspect, and i've got a feeling it's really 9,

with a funny looking naught added.

Very interesting! 1901: Joseph and Thomas HOLDER [sic] boarding at 2 Gas Street ... and in the very next house on the census (over the page) is a SLATTER family at No.18, although there's no Rose.

I'm sure you've found them!

Adrian

[myos]

He is also remembered with Honour on the Lytham War Memorial.

Andy

[basiloxford]

Thanks Andy, That's very much appreciated.

I did wonder if he was commemorated somewhere else, but i a drew a blank with Burnley.

I've found a wonderful web site that records the many war memorials in Burnley, although i'm not sure if it's complete.

In searching this website, i found plenty of Holden's, but no one by the name of Thomas Bradley.

His grandparents lived at Lytham, so i should imagine it was them that had him commemorated there.

Thanks again,

Barry.

[basiloxford]

Hi Everyone,

Just in case any of you guys are interested, I've just received the marriage certificate for the father Joseph Holden, and everything matches with the Joseph Holden from Burnley, except that he claimed to be a widower.

As a result, i should imagine that his second marriage was almost certainly a bigamous one.

And just to to confirm the connection to the guy that i've found on the war memorial,-

throughout the great War, his father was only living around 200 yards from the Church that his son was commemorated with.

Thanks again for all your help,

Barry.