A soldier's ammunition load

[Guest Paul_9686]

In addition to the ammo carried in the pattern '08 and '14 ammo pouches, would a Tommy have also carried one or more 50-shot bandoleers? (I know, BTW, that bandoleers were packed into the leather '14 pouches.) Perhaps I'm thinking too much of photos I've seen of WWII GIs festooned with bandoleers of M-1 clips, but it seems that a soldier may use a lot more ammo than he thinks he will and resupply in the middle of a battle might be erratic.

Thanks in advance.

Yours,

Paul

[bkristof]

i once saw a picture (don't know anymore where) with a soldier who wears a P08 webbing + 2 bandoleers !

[Guest Paul_9686]

Well, that's one example. Thanks, B. I wonder if the soldier in question was a survivor of the "Old Contemptibles" and a man who knew the value of rifle fire?

Yours,

Paul

[Guest stevenbec]

Mate,

I have come across this in the AIF with the ALH.

What happen is this.

All units have what is known as SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) purhaps the British Infantry may know it by another name. But in my days in the Army, we (Cavalry) called it Sqn operating procedues.

This is a book that list all things within a unit to standardize all things like ammo and QM issue of gear. But could mean many things to do within a unit.

Now these SOP's were also used for units in a Brigade and Divison.

I have orders/instructions issued to the Camel Brigade when it was attached to the 53rd Div for the battle of Gaza which state their SOP's for ammo issue. This was a lot less then the Camel Brigade issued and such they decided not to follow that SOP but use their own.

You may have read some Army orders issued for a battle which state just this line "As per SOP's".

S.B

[Tim Birch]

According to Sergeant EW Cotton, 5 Northumberland Fusiliers, and Robert Graves, 2 Royal Welch Fusiliers an infantryman's equipment in 1915 included 150 rounds of ammunition carried in pouches.

I understand that for the Battle of the Somme this had been increased to 200 rounds per man , and six Mills bombs had been added. The bombs were to be handed to trained bombers, and an untrained infantryman was forbidden to throw them himself.

Tim

[Raster Scanning]

In the 7th Beds Rgt operational orders for July 1st 1916 under 'Equipment to be carried on the men".

" 1 bandolier in addition to his equipment ammn (170 rounds in all).

1 days ration and 1 iron ration.

1 waterproof sheet.

2 sandbags.

1 yellow patch on haversack on his back.

3 smoke helmets.

Grenadiers will only carry 50 rounds S.A.A."

The 7th Beds Rgt was using 1914 patt equipment at this time.

As far as I see with 100 in the 2 leather P14 pouches and 50 in the additional bandolier. Even with a full magazine and charger I still make that only 160?

Below is an example of the cloth bandolier,

[PhilipH]

SOPs provide the theory. In a set piece operation I suggest that they would represent the minimum levels as soldiers will always (always!) carry what they think they need rather than what they are told they will need.

The logistics of getting ammunition forward and distributed was the responsibility of the CSM and the Platoon Sergeants. They could only distribute what they were given or could scrounge. If this action was done out of the line then it would have been reasonably straighforward. The further forward it was done the more problematic it became. It doesn't matter what the orders say if the supply chain did not function.

A bandolier of 50 rounds is not actually that heavy so depending on what other kit had to go forward I could well imagine soldiers taking a few extra if they thought it would help.

[Guest stevenbec]

Yes mate your basicly right.

But can I say that SOP's set the limits in that the QM when ordering ammo for the coming attack would look at SOP's and see that it said's a soldier would say have his basic load + a bandiler and two granades.

So he (QM) could order bulk amounts + some for contingencys to be issued. Remember all ammo types are also set so he knows what to and can order.

This also goes for every other item issued to a soldier.

This is because we don't want our soldiers showing up for a battle with only 10 or 1000 rds of ammo because the soldier thinks its not enough or to much.

The military as you know likes to standardize things.

S.B

[Joe Sweeney]

As far as I see with 100 in the 2 leather P14 pouches and 50 in the additional bandolier. Even with a full magazine and charger I still make that only 160?

John,

This is the first time it occurred to me. The P14 pouches have an odd interior pocket that is meant for one 5rd Charger. So that would equal your 170rds.

Joe Sweeney

[terryb95]

What about the ten rounds on the rifle?

[Tim Birch]

What about the ten rounds on the rifle?

Was a second mag. carried for a quick change? If so, there's another 9 rounds.

Tim

[Raster Scanning]

As far as I see with 100 in the 2 leather P14 pouches and 50 in the additional bandolier. Even with a full magazine and charger I still make that only 160?

John,

This is the first time it occurred to me. The P14 pouches have an odd interior pocket that is meant for one 5rd Charger. So that would equal your 170rds.

Joe Sweeney

Thanks Joe.

That must be it, 110 in the pouches 10 in the rifle and 50 in the cotton bandolier.

Cheers.

[Guest Paul_9686]

No, Tim. Although the magazine on the SMLE was removable, it wasn't intended to be removed for quick changes from an empty mag to a loaded one, as with modern rifles. The SMLE's mag was supposed to be integral with the rifle, and removed only for rifle-cleaning and close inspection of the magazine lips. Normally, the weapon was loaded with 5-round charger clips, but I reckon in a pinch, it could be "topped up" with individual rounds.

Yours,

Paul

[Guest stevenbec]

mates,

What I mean by SOP's is shown by the following.

The Camel Brigade were an Inpendant Brigade att as Corps Troops in Egypt.

Its SOP's shown it had an issue of 300 rds per man.

For the 2nd Battle of Gaza, the Brigade was attch to the Imperial Mounted Division and its SOP's shown that each soldier would have an issue of 250 rds.

Now on the night of 16/17 April 1917 the Brigade come under command of the 53rd British Div and its SOP's show each soldier is issued 150 rds.

So how many rds would a camel corps soldier carry into battle?

The Brigade in this case stayed with its 300 rds which was lucky they did when two companies became cut off in a redoubt and had to fight it out for hours.

S.B

[Guest Northumberland]

another eye-witness account from Forgotten Voices of the Great War

"... we would have to carry not only our own kit with 250 rounds of ammunition........ sometimes they'd ask us, between two people, (to) carry up 1,000 rounds of machinegun ammunition as well.... "

Private Reginald Haine, 1st battallion, Homourable Artillery Company

[laughton]

According to Sergeant EW Cotton, 5 Northumberland Fusiliers, and Robert Graves, 2 Royal Welch Fusiliers an infantryman's equipment in 1915 included 150 rounds of ammunition carried in pouches.

I understand that for the Battle of the Somme this had been increased to 200 rounds per man , and six Mills bombs had been added. The bombs were to be handed to trained bombers, and an untrained infantryman was forbidden to throw them himself.

Tim

Tim:

You are indeed correct with your comments about the Mills bombs. I thought that you might be interested to see those comments in writing on April 9, 1917, for as soon I read your comment I remembered seeing that in my grandfathers notes. These are in the diary pages that I have posted on our web site, in particular at this page:

http://www.censol.ca/research/greatwar/arras.htm

You will see the comments are in the note in the 8th row, which is identified as page 5 and recorded on April 9, 1917.

Richard of Canada

[Muerrisch]

Pte. Frank Richards DCM MM of 2RWF mentioned [a tad grumpily] that, when expecting imminent action in August or September 1914, the battalion was required to carry 250 rounds in total, representing nearly 20 minutes sustained fire by trained marksmen, or some 250,000 rounds on target, or near it, in less than 20 minutes.

Neddless to say, he was not required to squeeze them off: I wonder when this load was eased back on to the carts?

[terryb95]

I assume that there would also have been a company reserve and Battalon reserve of SAA.

Terry

[Guest stevenbec]

Yes Mate,

Reserve ammo is kept by the QMS and moved forward as required.

My understanding the reason the British Infantry (150 rds) carried so few rd's was because of the load limits in moving in the desert for those on foot.

While the Camel Mounted soldier could carry more untill he got off and had to advance on foot.

S.B

[laughton]

As far as I see with 100 in the 2 leather P14 pouches and 50 in the additional bandolier. Even with a full magazine and charger I still make that only 160?

John,

This is the first time it occurred to me. The P14 pouches have an odd interior pocket that is meant for one 5rd Charger. So that would equal your 170rds.

Joe Sweeney

If we can trust what the renowned author Yves Buffetaut stated in his book "The 1917 Spring Offensives", the 170 is the correct answer.

[terryb95]

There is no correct answer it would be laid down in Div, Bde and Bn SOP's which would give the minium number etc of rounds to be carried on the soldier, and this could be changed very simply by the CO, OC Pl Comd depending on the task in hand. As is down now.

Terry