Big ask - but which Regiment/Battalion is this ?

[Andre Chissel]

This is a photo of my Grandfather George Penny Chissel (who was born in September 1898) taken sometime after 22nd October 1917 in Glasgow. He had originally joined 2/9th (Glasgow Highlanders) Highland Light Infantry and deployed to France in 1916 but was sent home for being underage. His medals (BWM and VM) say 4792 SCO.RIF indicating that he obviously returned to France (presumably sometime after his 19th birthday) with the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) however, the uniform above does not have black buttons indicative of the Cameronians.

Thus I am confused. What uniform is it ? A Scottish Regiment based in Glasgow in 1917 presumably/obviously - which one ?an HLI Battalion ? Presumably he would have been kicked out of the 9th HLI for being underage or would he simply have been "back squadded" into an available HLI Battalion when he returned hoe to Glasgow ? As he went to France with the Cameronians did he switch Regiments again ?If so why, or was it case of replacements BECAME members of the Regiment that they were replacements for ? If so was this usual ?Would he have been kicked out of the Army (for being underage) and have waited for his call up papers under conscription ?

Sorry ! - a lot of questions- I supposethe main ones are "What Regiment does my Grandfather form part of in this photo ?" and "If it is not a Cameronian uniform, why would he change Regiments to go to France ?"

Any assistance would be appreciated.

Many thanks

Andre Chissel

[roughdiamond]

Andre

If he deployed under age in 1916, he'd have been 17 or 18 years old when they discovered he was under age, in cases like that the Army normally kept these "Boys" in rear area training camps in France until they were of fighting age rather than send them home, especially when he was so close to being 19.

He couldn't have deployed to France with 2/9th HLI? There is no MIC card for him with that unit and as you can see from this extract taken from the Long Long Trail, the unit didn't leave the UK:

2/9th (Glasgow Highland) Battalion

Formed in Glasgow in September 1914 as a second line battalion. Moved to Dunfermline by August 1915.

Was named 24th Bn between November 1915 and January 1916.

Moved in March 1916 to Maldon, going on to the Curragh in January 1917 and on to Dublin in August 1917.

Disbanded in Ireland by the May 1918.

Are you certain the photo was taken after the 22/10/1917 date?

Sam

[sotonmate]

A

The Medal Index Card shows that he entered a war theatre as 47922 Scottish Rifles. There are only three other CHISSELs by the way in all the MICs,and none in the SR.

By looking at the original Medal Roll at Kew you can find which Battalion he landed with or for.

Sotonmate

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi Andre,

Does your man have any lettering, or a shape, on his shoulder strap?

Aye

Tom McC

[roughdiamond]

Something I noticed about George's Army number, from a quick look there is no one on the MIC's around that number in the Scottish Rifles, yet from 47917 to 47927, other than George, 8 out of 10 of those numbers were allocated to men in the Royal Scots Fusiliers amongst other units, but RSF were the only Scots unit Soldiers with those numbers. Coincidence?

BTW none of the 8 are on the CWGC Debt of Honour.

Tom

I isolated and re-sized the photo for Andre and also sent him a head and shoulders close up, but I didn't see anything.

Sam

[Andre Chissel]

Hi Sam,

Yes absolutely certain re the date of the photo as the entire photo is one of Geroge, his Mum and Dad and his brother in Navy uniform and the latter joined the Navy on 22/10/1917.

I also understand that men of the 2/9th (not the battalion as a whole supplied reinforcements to the 1/9th from time to time (I have newspaper clippings to that effect).

Question - is the MIC card a quarantee of first deployment overseas ? I do not know.

According to Van Emden's book on boy soldiers he would have been sent home apparently think it was page 93

Thrilled that I have had several responses thanks !

Andre

Andre

If he deployed under age in 1916, he'd have been 17 or 18 years old when they discovered he was under age, in cases like that the Army normally kept these "Boys" in rear area training camps in France until they were of fighting age rather than send them home, especially when he was so close to being 19.

He couldn't have deployed to France with 2/9th HLI? There is no MIC card for him with that unit and as you can see from this extract taken from the Long Long Trail, the unit didn't leave the UK:

2/9th (Glasgow Highland) Battalion

Formed in Glasgow in September 1914 as a second line battalion. Moved to Dunfermline by August 1915.

Was named 24th Bn between November 1915 and January 1916.

Moved in March 1916 to Maldon, going on to the Curragh in January 1917 and on to Dublin in August 1917.

Disbanded in Ireland by the May 1918.

Are you certain the photo was taken after the 22/10/1917 date?

Sam

Hi Tom,

That would be too easy !

Of course not ! (or at least none that I can see even blowing up the photo)

Andre

Hi Andre,

Does your man have any lettering, or a shape, on his shoulder strap?

Aye

Tom McC

[Andre Chissel]

Hi Sotonmate,

Not in my Grandfather's case I am afraid the MIC just shows that he was in the Labour Corps but with no mention of Battalion

Andre

A

The Medal Index Card shows that he entered a war theatre as 47922 Scottish Rifles. There are only three other CHISSELs by the way in all the MICs,and none in the SR.

By looking at the original Medal Roll at Kew you can find which Battalion he landed with or for.

Sotonmate

[Andre Chissel]

Hi Sam,

When George was in the Labour Corps (ie when he was allocated this 6 figure number - are you saying that he was probably attached to the RSF Labour Corps ??

Andre

Something I noticed about George's Army number, from a quick look there is no one on the MIC's around that number in the Scottish Rifles, yet from 47917 to 47927, other than George, 8 out of 10 of those numbers were allocated to men in the Royal Scots Fusiliers amongst other units, but RSF were the only Scots unit Soldiers with those numbers. Coincidence?

BTW none of the 8 are on the CWGC Debt of Honour.

Tom

I isolated and re-sized the photo for Andre and also sent him a head and shoulders close up, but I didn't see anything.

Sam

[sotonmate]

A

A look at the original Medal Roll will show which Battalion he landed in France with/for,I have now found the reference of the ledger,which is filed at the National Archives and needs access on site. It is WO329/1835 page 15451.It is a Labour Corps ledger,because they were responsible for issuing his medals as he was serving with them when the medals were being listed for issue,but they have to show which unit he was entitled to them with.

Sotonmate

[Andre Chissel]

H iSotonmate,

Is this what you mean ?

Hoe the attachment attaches !

Andre

A

A look at the original Medal Roll will show which Battalion he landed in France with/for,I have now found the reference of the ledger,which is filed at the National Archives and needs access on site. It is WO329/1835 page 15451.It is a Labour Corps ledger,because they were responsible for issuing his medals as he was serving with them when the medals were being listed for issue,but they have to show which unit he was entitled to them with.

Sotonmate

[Tom A McCluskey]

Andre,

Regardless of the blackened rifle buttons (not always worn - economy, replacement jackets, etc.), I would have no problem in identifying your man as Scottish Rifles. You will never know for certain, clearly, because you cannot see any of his identifying badges.

Aye

Tom McC

[Andre Chissel]

Thanks Tom,

Would you like to hazard a go at my other questions ?

Andre

Andre,

Regardless of the blackened rifle buttons (not always worn - economy, replacement jackets, etc.), I would have no problem in identifying your man as Scottish Rifles. You will never know for certain, clearly, because you cannot see any of his identifying badges.

Aye

Tom McC

[sotonmate]

AC

Your post 10,I can't read the image. It IS what I mean.I take it that it doesn't show a Battalion ?

Your man,on landing in France,may have gone to an Infantry Base Depot,and from there allocated to where he was needed to cover for losses/deficient numbers.

Sotonmate

[Andre Chissel]

Hi there,

Nope - no battalion because that is just my luck !

Andre

AC

Your post 10,I can't read the image. It IS what I mean.I take it that it doesn't show a Battalion ?

Your man,on landing in France,may have gone to an Infantry Base Depot,and from there allocated to where he was needed to cover for losses/deficient numbers.

Sotonmate

[stephen p nunn]

Andre

If he deployed under age in 1916, he'd have been 17 or 18 years old when they discovered he was under age, in cases like that the Army normally kept these "Boys" in rear area training camps in France until they were of fighting age rather than send them home, especially when he was so close to being 19.

He couldn't have deployed to France with 2/9th HLI? There is no MIC card for him with that unit and as you can see from this extract taken from the Long Long Trail, the unit didn't leave the UK:

2/9th (Glasgow Highland) Battalion

Formed in Glasgow in September 1914 as a second line battalion. Moved to Dunfermline by August 1915.

Was named 24th Bn between November 1915 and January 1916.

Moved in March 1916 to Maldon, going on to the Curragh in January 1917 and on to Dublin in August 1917.

Disbanded in Ireland by the May 1918.

Are you certain the photo was taken after the 22/10/1917 date?

Sam

Interesting reference to Maldon. I have a note in my papers that the 2nd Line, 6th Battalion HLI were here in 1916. They had an orderly room at 27 London Road with a field kitchen in the adjacent yard. They had relocated from Dunfermline and during the move 85 pairs of boots, some tools and 3 stable barrows had gone missing. Maldon police offered a £5 reward for information!

Regards.

SPN

Maldon (not far from London Road and the house in question)

[roughdiamond]

Hi Andre,

Does your man have any lettering, or a shape, on his shoulder strap?

Aye

Tom McC

Tom

This is the head and shoulders blow up I did for Andre, as you can see, no shoulder title.

[roughdiamond]

Hi Sam,

When George was in the Labour Corps (ie when he was allocated this 6 figure number - are you saying that he was probably attached to the RSF Labour Corps ??

Andre

No Andre

The number I was refering to was his Cameronians number, it's possible he could have been allocated it from a block of numbers, with those other 8 going to the RSF and for some reason George going to the Cameronians, this could have happened as part of the Training Reserve initiative, you will notice that the Cameronians and RSF were part of the same 12th Training Reserve Brigade in the link below.

http://www.1914-1918.net/training_reserve.htm

Someone I'm sure will come along shortly and say I'm talking guff, it's only a guess.

Sam

[Andre Chissel]

Thanks Sam,

I had written a lengthy response to this then hit the wrong button and lost it all.

Essentially you are a star and the TR explains the lack of shoulder titles and virtually everything else - One last question then for everyone, what cap badge would he be wearing if Geroge was in any of the Scottish Brigades of the TR in late 1917 ? Not the GS button as that had disappeared - what was it replaced by in Scotland ?

Many many thanks for this Sam.

Andre

No Andre

The number I was refering to was his Cameronians number, it's possible he could have been allocated it from a block of numbers, with those other 8 going to the RSF and for some reason George going to the Cameronians, this could have happened as part of the Training Reserve initiative, you will notice that the Cameronians and RSF were part of the same 12th Training Reserve Brigade in the link below.

http://www.1914-1918...ing_reserve.htm

Someone I'm sure will come along shortly and say I'm talking guff, it's only a guess.

Sam

[Andre Chissel]

Hello again !

Initially convinced (as anyone can be) that George was in a Training Reserve Battalion because of the lack of shoulder title in the photo (given thedate the photo was taken), I re-read the material on the Long Long Trail (which is a very appropriate name for WW1 research) and realised that Traing Reserve Battalions did not apply to Territorial Force soldiers (and George was in the TF).

However, George's Battalion (9th HLI - kilt wearing) was in Ireland when he was sent home from France so where would he have gone if he was placed in the "Reserve" another HLI Battalion ? If so would it have been a TF or Regular Reserve Battalion ? and if the latter could this Regular Reserve Battalion have been turned into a Training Reserve Battalion ? Or would it all have been placed in the" too hard asket" and would he have simply been discharged and called up under conscription ?

If someone would please offer an Occam's Razor type solution I will be happy and go along with it - What is the most likely thing that would have happened ? Please ! Anyone !!!

Thanks

Andre