The Queen's then Army Ordnance Corps, or vice versa?

[nf3996]

I'd appreciate some thoughts on the attached photograph. It shows my grandfather, Thomas George Alexander, in uniform during the First World War. From the cap badge I can see that the uniform is that of The Queen's (Royal West Surrey) Regiment, or the 22^nd/24^th battalion (The Queen's) County of London Regiment. I now have that badge, plus several other Queen's artefacts that belonged to my grandfather.

The photograph is confusing me because all the other evidence I have points to my grandfather's being only in the Army Ordnance Corps from his conscription in 1916 to his discharge in 1919. His medal index card shows that he was Private 027514 in the AOC - the card mentions no other regiment. The Absent Voters list for 1918/1919 gives his unit as the AOC, and I have two photographs of him in AOC and RAOC uniform (I also have his AOC and RAOC badges). He was discharged from the army on 25 October 1919.

There are two points about the photograph, however, that make me think it was actually taken in 1919. Over his left breast pocket there appear to be medal ribbons, and he is wearing a flat cap, not a steel helmet. I presume medals weren't issued until 1919, and if there was no longer any fighting a steel helmet wouldn't need to be worn. If I am correct, this would point to his being transferred out of the RAOC into The Queen's shortly before his discharge. The question therefore arises - why would he have been transferred in 1919? If I'm wrong, it would point to his being conscripted into The Queen's and being transferred to the AOC later on; if that's the case, they cannot be medal ribbons over his left breast pocket - what are they?

Any thoughts or comments would be welcome to help me solve this mystery.

Many thanks,

Alan

[Ghost]

I would say only one medal ribbon. By 1919 I think ribbons for the war and victory medals would have been issued, and probably the stars. The ribbon looks to me like the military Cross, but as he is not a senior NCO or officer I don't see how he could have earned it. Curiouser and Curiouser.

Alan

[nf3996]

He was awarded the British War Medal and the Victory Medal only, so I'm pretty sure it's not the Military Cross (although I'd be pleased if it was!).

Alan

[headgardener]

Medal ribbons can often look deceptive on photos of this period due to differences in photographic processes. It does look a bit like an MC, but it's probably a BWM.

I've seen pictures of men wearing just a BWM ribbon even though they were also awarded the VM; It may simply be that the BWM ribbon was sent out before the VM. To the best of my knowledge small lengths of ribbon were often sent out long before the medals were sent. This would allow a man to get his ribbon(s) up at the earliest possible opportunity. I believe that the bulk of WW1 campaign medals were issued over a period of a couple of years, certainly well after most men were demobbed.

Back to the issue in hand;

Are you sure it's him in the photo? Could it be a relative (a brother, perhaps)?

Do you have any further details? How do you know when he was discharged?

A man's MIC won't necessarily list all the units he served with, by the way. Generally it only shows the ones he served OVERSEAS with. So your man could have served with another unit before joining the AOC (unlikely in this case because of the medal ribbon, assuming it's a BWM).

[sotonmate]

nf

I am uneasy about it being a BWM. I just blew it up and negatived the pic to obtain a different perspective. The ribbon has two lighter edges than I would expect if I combined the thin dark blue and black edging and the central section too dark and too wide for the orange and white bands present in the normal BWM. Could be a trick of the light though,as a friend once said when they thought they had seen a dockie sweating !

Sotonmate

[nf3996]

Back to the issue in hand;

Are you sure it's him in the photo? Could it be a relative (a brother, perhaps)?

Do you have any further details? How do you know when he was discharged?

A man's MIC won't necessarily list all the units he served with, by the way. Generally it only shows the ones he served OVERSEAS with. So your man could have served with another unit before joining the AOC (unlikely in this case because of the medal ribbon, assuming it's a BWM).

Yes, I'm sure it's him - his brothers didn't serve as they were too young - and it's the same face as in his AOC/RAOC photos. I know he was discharged on 25/10/1919 from his medal roll. The only other detail I have is that he was injured at some point and came back to the UK on HMHS Carisbrook Castle. I'd assumed he was in The Queen's first of all, then transferred to the AOC after his injury. But the evidence on his MIC and this photo seem to indicate that wasn't the case.

Alan

[headgardener]

Any chance of a close up of the ribbon. It can also help to do a 'negative' image of it as well; some details can show up a bit better on a negative. Perhaps he had some other medal that we haven't ID'd yet.

You're certain that he was conscripted in 1916?

Edit; just noticed that he's wearing a 'good conduct chevron' on his lower left sleeve. It was awarded for year's service without being found guilty of any disciplinary offence. Certainly matches the presumed date of the photo on the basis of the enlistment date that you gave.

[nf3996]

Any chance of a close up of the ribbon. It can also help to do a 'negative' image of it as well; some details can show up a bit better on a negative. Perhaps he had some other medal that we haven't ID'd yet.

You're certain that he was conscripted in 1916?

Edit; just noticed that he's wearing a 'good conduct chevron' on his lower left sleeve. It was awarded for year's service without being found guilty of any disciplinary offence. Certainly matches the presumed date of the photo on the basis of the enlistment date that you gave.

Close-up of the medal ribbon now attached.

I'm pretty certain that my grandfather was conscripted. He wouldn't have been 18 until September 1915, so I suppose there is a possibility that he volunteered late in 1915, when he knew conscription was coming, so that he stood a chance of getting into a local regiment (he lived in Wandsworth). My mother tells me that he didn't volunteer, but also that he would never talk about the war. I knew him from his sixties to his nineties and I wish I'd tried to discover these things while he was still alive.

Alan

[nf3996]

I've just gone back and had another look at his AOC and RAOC photos - see attached. In the RAOC photo he appears to be wearing the same medal ribbon as in The Queen's photo. On that basis, the sequence seems to be: conscripted to AOC in 1916; AOC becomes RAOC in 1918; receives medals as on MIC in 1919; transferred to The Queen's in 1919 before discharge (and after MIC completed). Does that make sense? If so, why would he have been transferred so soon before discharge?

Alan

[headgardener]

It's a BWM ribbon.

The other 2 photos are interesting, though. In the one on the right he's wearing a WW1-era AOC badge, in the one on the left he's wearing a different cap-badge entirely. Difficult to tell, but maybe a later style RAOC badge (1930's onwards? I'm not an expert on that, I'm afraid). Could someone help out on this? Either way, he's wearing the same BWM ribbon so it's post-war (1920's?). So are you certain that your man was awarded a BWM & VM? We have 3 cap-badges; WW1 era AOC, Queens (post-war, evidenced by the BWM ribbon), and something else, maybe RAOC between the wars, but presumably the same man as in the Queens photo (BWM ribbon). Only one medal, though. Still possible that he hadn't got his VM ribbon at that time, but I'm thinking that these photos represent 2 separate periods of service.

Maybe he joined up again sometime after his discharge from the AOC in 1919 (not unheard of), and served first in the Queens and then in the RAOC? Do you know whether he had any regular army service?

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Edit; Just had a quick check in a reference book, and I'm certain that the other badge (the one on the left) is RAOC dating from 1919-47, so it would fit with his service up to some time in late 1919. That would place the Queens picture as the final pic in this trio. Let us know about his medal entitlement. It's possible that his VM ribbon is obscured by his shoulder strap, but it looks like 1 ribbon to me.

[nf3996]

It's a BWM ribbon.

The other 2 photos are interesting, though. In the one on the right he's wearing a WW1-era AOC badge, in the one on the left he's wearing a different cap-badge entirely. Difficult to tell, but maybe a later style RAOC badge (1930's onwards? I'm not an expert on that, I'm afraid). Could someone help out on this? Either way, he's wearing the same BWM ribbon so it's post-war (1920's?). So are you certain that your man was awarded a BWM & VM? We have 3 cap-badges; WW1 era AOC, Queens (post-war, evidenced by the BWM ribbon), and something else, maybe RAOC between the wars, but presumably the same man as in the Queens photo (BWM ribbon). Only one medal, though. Still possible that he hadn't got his VM ribbon at that time, but I'm thinking that these photos represent 2 separate periods of service.

Maybe he joined up again sometime after his discharge from the AOC in 1919 (not unheard of), and served first in the Queens and then in the RAOC? Do you know whether he had any regular army service?

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Edit; Just had a quick check in a reference book, and I'm certain that the other badge (the one on the left) is RAOC dating from 1919-47, so it would fit with his service up to some time in late 1919. That would place the Queens picture as the final pic in this trio. Let us know about his medal entitlement. It's possible that his VM ribbon is obscured by his shoulder strap, but it looks like 1 ribbon to me.

I'm 100% certain my grandfather didn't join up again after he was discharged, so the RAOC photo must date from 1919 shortly after the introduction of the new style cap badge. I'm now attaching scans of his MIC and his medal ribbons; I have the ribbons and box, but not the medals - I don't recall ever seeing those. The box says 'WAR and VICTORY' and the MIC shows those two as well.

Many thanks for all the suggestions so far.

Alan

[madtaffy]

Hi Alan

your Grandfather came on 25th Oct 1919

i reakon you have 2 choices

1 he was in the queens at the start of the war, but came out due to wounds, sickness but was called up in 1916

2 did his time in the AOC/RAOC came out in 1919 but due to the lack of jobs or he could not cope with civy street he rejoined

i think the later one, only because on the Queens uniform you can see a medal ribbon, the same as on the RAOC uniform, so i would tend to lean towards this

hope this helps

Ian

[nf3996]

Hi Alan

your Grandfather came on 25th Oct 1919

i reakon you have 2 choices

1 he was in the queens at the start of the war, but came out due to wounds, sickness but was called up in 1916

2 did his time in the AOC/RAOC came out in 1919 but due to the lack of jobs or he could not cope with civy street he rejoined

i think the later one, only because on the Queens uniform you can see a medal ribbon, the same as on the RAOC uniform, so i would tend to lean towards this

hope this helps

Ian

Ian,

Thanks for your thoughts. However, I know that my grandfather only had one period of military service - from conscription in 1916 (when he was 18/19) to discharge in 1919. He wasn't in the army prior to conscription, and he didn't serve again after discharge.

On the basis of all the above responses, it seems most likely that he was conscripted to the AOC and stayed there through to early 1919 (in time for it to become the RAOC and get a new badge and his medal ribbons), and was then transferred to The Queen's before discharge in October 1919. I don't know what Queen's battalion he was in, but amongst his wartime possessions are some photos of soldiers dismantling what looks like a coastal battery. The location isn't identified so I posted those photos on here a few months ago, but they drew no response. They may relate to his Queen's service, so I'll post some of them again shortly to see if anyone new can identify the place or can identify a Queen's connection.

Many thanks,

Alan

[David_Underdown]

Did any of the Queen's battalions serve in the army of occupation? As a Wandsworth man, Queen's at least was a Surrey regiment, though Wandsworth was actually in the East Surreys' recruiting area. He may appear in the Surrey Recruitment Registers, which might clear up his initial service history, and attestation date. I have a copy, but probably won't have chance to look before tomorrow, you might be able to ask someone else for a lookup over in that section of the forum.

[kenf48]

Did any of the Queen's battalions serve in the army of occupation?

After the Victory Parade in 1919 the 2nd Bn Queens went to India and remained there for a number of years, and was posted to the Sudan The 1st Bn was sent to Ireland. I don't think the sun would ever make such a contrasting shadow in Ireland It looks for example like some pictures taken in the Med.

I tried to enhance the building in the background to see if it registered any particular type of vernacular architecture, without success, mind you the way the 'wall' is peeling of what appears to be a fort may mean it's just a studio picture. So not much help there either!

Ken

[David_Underdown]

I was thinking more of whether any of the TF or service battalions spent any time in Germany.

[Stebie9173]

Further to David's British Army of Occupation on the Rhine (BAOR) suggestion, the 10th, 11th and 2/4th Battalions of the Queen's (Royal West Surrey) Regiment served on the Rhine as 123rd Brigade of the London Division until September 1919 - this date tying in with the date of discharge (allowing for demobilisation in September 1919 + 1 month demob leave).

The 10th and 11th Battalions joined the Rhine Garrison in November 1919.

See:

http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/history/volume5/518/Original%20BAOR.pdf

(PDF file)

Steve.

[Andrew Upton]

For what I think it's worth:

The one medal ribband bar clearly visible is for the British War Medal - orthochromatic film typically used at this time has the effect of rendering certain light colours dark and vice versa.

However, I wonder if we can just see part of the Victory Medal ribband alongside as well. It's partially covered by his webbing, even less clear than the BWM and consequently very dark but there does appear to be something there.

[kenf48]

fwiw the attached is taken from a 21st Century blog http://afghanistanmy...ur.com/page/16/

I may just be being fanciful, soldiers taking pictures nearly 90 years on, but they look like very similar mud huts to me with characteristic straight sides and small windows.

If he had enlisted as a regular with the Queens and went to 'India' they were deployed in Waziristan which is the present day Pakistan/Aghanistan border. I know he's not in tropical kit but have seen photos from the 30s of soldiers wearing dark tunics.

While this is great fun and an interesting puzzle wouldn't a simple search at Army records resolve it?

I'll get me coat...

Ken

[headgardener]

However, I wonder if we can just see part of the Victory Medal ribband alongside as well. It's partially covered by his webbing, even less clear than the BWM and consequently very dark but there does appear to be something there.

You may be right, but I reckon it's the space bordered by the bottom edge of his shoulder patch and the upper edge of his pocket. The fact that we can't clearly discern a ribbon on either pic makes me think that there's only one ribbon. But, then again, we do commonly see men wearing just one ribbon when actually they were awarded more. We expect that the BW&VM ribbons were sent out together, but they may have been sent seperately. Or he may have lost the VM ribbon. By the way, I'm not talking about the ribbons that came with his medals, I'm referring to the ribbon strips that were sent out for use on ribbon bars. These were sent well before many medals were sent.

I'm not too worried about the ribbon, it's the service in the Queens that I still find puzzling.

[nf3996]

I don't know what Queen's battalion he was in, but amongst his wartime possessions are some photos of soldiers dismantling what looks like a coastal battery. The location isn't identified so I posted those photos on here a few months ago, but they drew no response. They may relate to his Queen's service, so I'll post some of them again shortly to see if anyone new can identify the place or can identify a Queen's connection.

Many thanks,

Alan

I've now added the photos in a new thread in the 'Other' section under the heading 'Coastal gun battery. Where is it?'. They appear to relate to RAOC work, however, so may not help in solving this Queen's mystery.

Alan

[David_Underdown]

Not included in the surviving Surrey Recruitment Registers unfortunately