Head Camps

[Mike Donoghue]

Hello,

My grandfather Pte. Daniel Donoghue, reg. # 7883 of the Royal Munster Fusiliers was taken PoW at Etreux, France on Aug. 27 1914. He spent the rest of the war as a PoW. I have been reading the Long Long Trail as well as other posts on the subject and I think I am beginning to understand what would have happened to my grandfather after he was captured.

Am I correct in assuming he may have been sent with soldiers of other regiments who were captured at the same time to where the Corps which captured them was stationed or headquartered at the time? I presume that would have been some distance in the rear of the German line. Any idea of how long it may have taken to send him on to a head camp?

I understand the concept of head camps but was wondering what type of work prisoners would have had to do? Was punishment handed out for lack of cooperation?

Lastly, did the head camps exist for the whole war? I've been told the most likely PoW camp that my Irish grandfather would have ended up was Limburg. I was wondering how long he may have spent in any one camp?

Sorry for so many questions at once. I would like to thank any replies in advance.

Mike

[Doug Johnson]

Mike,

There is no set pattern to what happened after capture and it depends on where and when. In August 1914 things were quite fluid. He would have been marched to the rear and then, depending on the time of day and the location of the nearest rail head, he may have spent the night either in the open or in some sort of building, possibly half ruined (churches were popular) and then sent to a rail head for transport to Germany. Being transported to Germany may have happened within hours of being captured. There is some indication that he would have been sent back to the region in Germany where the army corps that captured him came from but I do not have positive evidence of this as it is not easy to identify who actually captured them. Transport was often cattle trucks and in 1914 it would have been quite an ordeal. (Cd 8984)Miscellaneous No 3 (1918) Report on the Transport of British Prisoners of War to Germany; August - December 1914. specifically covers transport in this period and it was not published until 1918 so it was an important aspect. The stories are quite terrible with some prisoners spending perhaps four days packed into in the trucks with standing room only and which may not have been cleared out before use (not that significant since there were no toilet stops and the trucks fouled up quite quickly); little or no food supplied and little water with frequent stops at stations to allow them to be baited by the local civilians and troops. The wounded, depending on the severity of the wounds, may have followed a different route. NB about half the London Scottish PoWs taken Messines (about a dozen) were sent immediately to Guestrow despite that fact that all were wounded (one died later of his wounds), one unwounded was sent a day later as he was captured later than the others. About a dozen others were in the field hospital and were sent to various hospitals.

I have no idea where the Munsters were sent. According to Lindsay "The London Scottish in the Great War" the 2nd Munsters were wiped out on the retreat from Mons and their place in the 1st Guards Brigade being taken by the Cameron Highlanders.

The type of work prisoners were used for was very varied. Agriculture was one where a large proportion of men were engaged as was road and railway building, forestry, labouring etc. Some were sent to officers camps as servants (orderlies) some worked in the camps themselves in the kitchens, lazarets etc, though these were mainly NCOs, some were employed in skilled occupations (the German authorities actually considered giving training to PoWs) however few British soldiers taken in the early part of the war had any skills as they were professional soldiers (my grandfather was a territorial taken in 1914 so he had a previous job in a warehouse and ended up in the post office in the camp). The worst occupations were the mines, both salt and coal, and later in the war, being retained behind the lines which was invariably fatal.

Punishment depended on the camp but at the beginning it was frequent and often on a whim. Punishment varied from loss of priveldges like parcels and post, games and entertainment, from being tied to a post, though there were simple and extreme versions of this, being confined to cells and there was also heat and dark punishment where prisoners were kept for extended periods in the dark under quite high temperatures.

Not all head camps went through the whole war as head camps, Wahn and Erfurt were both head camps at the beginning of the war but were replaced by Limburg and Langensalza respectively. In 1914 most Irish were rounded up from other head camps and sent to Limburg, those that refused to go were usually punished though in this case by a good thrashing! NB Limburg was not a head camp at the time and indeed not for several more years. Limburg at the time was a classed as a propaganda camp i.e. used to demonstate how good the treatment of PoWs was, however, after the failure to recruit them for the Irish Brigade the camp changed dramatically to virtually a punishment camp. NB it is the movement of the Irish to Limburg that hinders finding out where they were initially sent, hopefully when the Red Cross cards are published it will make research of this aspect a lot easier. NB it was not unusual for prisoners to be moved between head camps and even between Army Corps areas.

Doug

[Mike Donoghue]

Sorry Doug, I've been away from my computer for a while. Thank you so much for your comments. Your information helps to provide some understanding of what might have happened to my Grandfather after Etreux. I have no idea if he was wounded or not so I will be left to wonder to which fait he was left.

As far as how long it took him to get to Limburg, if in fact he ended up there, I have a letter sent home by one of his regiment. James Sullivan forwarded it to me a while ago and I forgot I had it, sorry for not including it in my first post. It accounts for several PoW's at Limburg.

KENNEY, M., PRIVATE, POW - (CE 19/2/1915) - IMPRISONED MUNSTERS - APPEAL FOR COMFORTS - (To the Editor, 'Examiner') - Sir, - I write you these few lines to let you know how I am situated. I was badly wounded and taken prisoner by the Germans. I am now out of hospital and going on well so to let you know we would be very thankful for some assistance. There are five of us in need of cigarettes, tobacco, pipes, and some under-clothing. I remain, sir - Yours obediently, (10112) PTE. M. KENNEY.

The following are the names forwarded by our correspondent:-

10112, PTE. M. KENNEY, Prison No. 545; 7292 PTE. P. DEIGNAN, Prison No. 551;

6589 PTE. J. DONOGHUE, Prison No. 556; 7883 PTE. J. DILLON, Prison No. 550

1075 PTE. A. CHRISTIAN, Prison No. 558; Address:- 22 Section, No. 6 Company, Limburg (Lahn), Germany. January 25th, 1915.

It seems they made it to Limburg quicker than I thought.

There seems to be a possible mistake in the listing of prisoners. Maybe someone could help me with this. I know 6589 Pte. J Donoghue was listing missing in the Times the same date as my grandfather, Daniel. The regimental number listed after him and attributed to Pte. J. Dillon is my grandfather's number, 7883. Do you think this could just be a coincidence or a case of the letter writer putting the wrong name with that number? It seems a little unusual that he would list that number.

BTW, my Uncle told me that my grandfather joined the Munsters because his brother was all ready in the regiment. I've never been able to find any info to confirm that.

Any ideas on the regimental number discrepancy?

Thanks again for all the help.

Mike

[Doug Johnson]

Mike,

Most Irish who were moved to Limburg were there by the end of 1914. I would be surprised if your Grandfather was not one of them as very few resisted (though he would not necessarily have been there if he was wounded).

A search for Limburg on this site would be worthwhile as there is a lot posted including photographs.

Regimental numbers always cause problems as they are not unique and in the case of the Munsters it looks like there could be many sharing the same number with at least three having 7883 though, for some reason, J Dillon was not amongst them on a search of the MICs, nor could I find a Dillon with a similar number.

Doug

[corisande]

Yes as Doug says, most of the Munsters ended up in Limburg, for the putative conversion of Irish POWs to Casements Irish Brigade

My ramblings on Limburg are here

As he did not join the Irish Brigade (definitive unless he was serving under a different name) then he would have probably remained at Limburg after the Irish Brigade were move on to Zossen in summer of 1915

[corisande]

I don't know what happened to the Munster's when they were first taken prisoner - there was only one Munster in Irish Brigade and I do not have his capture history

However from other POWs writings I have

"Sennelager. By the end of November 1914 an English speaking German officer stood up in the Irish compound of the camp and made a flattering speech aimed at recruiting Irishmen. And at the same time Irish POWs at Sennelager were put in a compound with no barbed wire, and the Catholic Church was open daily. On the last Sunday of November 1914, the Bishop of Paderborn celebrated mass in the camp, and also announced that there would be a new Irish camp with two priests to tend to their spiritual needs.

And on 17 December 1500 Irish soldiers were taken by rail from Sennelager to Limburg. There was some difficulty apparently in convincing the Germans to only take Catholic Irishmen, as the Germans could not see why there should be a difference in the faiths. Casement believed that the isolation from other nationalities at Limburg, coupled with the Catholic priests, better food and recreation, would soon attract the men to the idea of an Irish Brigade.

1500 Irish soldiers marched that morning from the station at Limburg, over the cobbled streets of the old town, to the camp. Eventually 100 Irish died at the camp (according to Keogh) and were commemorated by a Celtic cross paid for by the prisoners. In fact only 34 were buried there at the time it was erected, and later more bodies were brought to make the 45 it currently commemorates. The cross was erected from donations made by the Irish prisoners themselves.

Keogh notes a better camp awaited the Irish at Limburg, from the conditions at Sennelager. "Fine wooden huts, each with two rooms to house 50 men: well ventilated, comfortable: beds on wooden trestles, and ample blankets". The new arrivals found that 300 Irish were already there from other camps, and they had been there 2 weeks and had already had a visit from Casement. By the time they left a year later he described it as rat ridden and poor accommodation.

[Mike Donoghue]

Thank you corisande for you reply.

Your information is very much appreciated.

Mike