Ted Graham at 15?

[moggs]

Hello all,

Just trying to work out whether the badge on Ted's right arm is significant at all. My gut feeling is that this photo was taken prior to him leaving for Training at Broadmeadows and just maybe it's a borrowed uniform?????

I've not seen such a badge or insignia on an AIF arm before but I am happy to be wrong.

Jonathan

Edit: the close-up of the badge is on a later post

[David B]

Jonathon,

Can't bring up your link to have a look could you repeat it please.

David

[harm45]

Try useing TinyPic - Free Image Hosting,

http://tinypic.com/?t=postupload

[moggs]

Here is the close up. Sorry about the fuss but the attachment process didn't work this morning no matter what I did.

Jonathan

[headgardener]

Picture quality isn't great, but it looks like a bandsman's insignia to me. Which could also fit his age (bugler, perhaps?). Drummers in the British army tended to have a drum-shaped badge, not sure about Australians.

Edit; a bandsman's badge is in the form of a lyre surmounted by a crown and with a few embellishments (laurel branches) around the sides and underneath.

[moggs]

Picture quality isn't great,

I wish I could do better for you but I wasn't around to take the snap

but it looks like a bandsman's insignia to me. Which could also fit his age (bugler, perhaps?). Drummers in the British army tended to have a drum-shaped badge, not sure about Australians.

Edit; a bandsman's badge is in the form of a lyre surmounted by a crown and with a few embellishments (laurel branches) around the sides and underneath.

I like the idea of a bandsman's badge although he wasn't a part of the battalion band despite his very musical later life.

Jonathan

[David B]

Jonathon,

Just had a quick look at his service docos at NAA and it appears that he was taken on as a bugler, and is referred as such in later pages of the docs, so gueee the badge is a buglers badge.

David

[headgardener]

Looks like David has confirmed it, but I'm going to split hairs and say that, technically, he's a bugler wearing a bandsman's badge rather than this being the insignia of a bugler. Not sure about the Australian army but in the British army during this period there were distinct badges for both buglers (crossed bugles) and drummers (a drum), both of which would have been bandsmen and both of whom I have seen wearing bandsmen's badges (a lyre) rather than that of either a bugler or a drummer.

You still awake....?

Hope that made pedantic sense.

[David B]

HG,

If you have time, have a look at the link below and click on the TRADE section and you will see (eventually) the Aust Army bugler badge.

Cheers David

http://www.diggerhis...s/history01.htm

[moggs]

Thanks everybody.

All of it makes sense except he's not seen with any badge in other photos of the time.

David, yes he was taken on as a bugler but quickly (3 days after joining the battalion) swapped with another man - Jack Trevan - who in fact was a brilliant musician. It was after Jack's death at Gallipoli that Ted possibly returned to bugling although he certainly returned to that position when recovering from a wound in England.

I've only had this photo for a few months now and only really wondered about the badge today as I returned to finalising some family research.

Jonathan

[moggs]

Sorry David,

I meant to add that your link was terrific. It looks closer to the bandsman's badge than the bugler's but it's just not clear enough either way.

What about the proficiency aspect? Doesn't that tend to mean a standard reached before receiving the badge? I'm not saying he wouldn't deserve one, it's just that he's so young in this picture and it had to be taken between November and December of 1914 when he was in training.

Thanks for your input.

Jonathan

[headgardener]

HG,

If you have time, have a look at the link below and click on the TRADE section and you will see (eventually) the Aust Army bugler badge.

Cheers David

Yes, stupid me, it's the same as a British army bugler; a hunting horn, not crossed bugles as I mistakenly stated earlier. The 'crossed bugles' bugles badge that I was thinking of is actually crossed trumpets (trumpeter in the RA). I recall that there is also a 'double bugle' badge (2 overlapping bugles) though I can't for the life of me remember what it stands for. Maybe a bugler in the light infantry? Anyway, I'm going a bit off topic.

[David B]

Jonathan,

Buglers were not part of the regimental brass band but were enlisted alongside fife players and drummers and were a normal part of the regiment. For some reason - I don't know why

buglers tended to be boys rather than adults, maybe çause they were more adaptable to learning the instrument at an early age, maybe someone will enlighten us both. It apparently takes about

four months to fully train up a bugler which is fairly quick in terms of musical competence. I do not know whether your man could play the instrument when he joined but his service docs look like

he could as IIRC his initial docs say he was a bugler.

Anyway thanks to all for their input, this way we all learn something.

Cheers David

[moggs]

Jonathan,

Buglers were not part of the regimental brass band but were enlisted alongside fife players and drummers and were a normal part of the regiment. For some reason - I don't know why

buglers tended to be boys rather than adults, maybe çause they were more adaptable to learning the instrument at an early age, maybe someone will enlighten us both. It apparently takes about

four months to fully train up a bugler which is fairly quick in terms of musical competence. I do not know whether your man could play the instrument when he joined but his service docs look like

he could as IIRC his initial docs say he was a bugler.

Anyway thanks to all for their input, this way we all learn something.

Cheers David

Thanks David,

Yes, Ted could play although I do believe he wanted to just fight, certainly in the beginning. From a musical point of view he was a drummer boy at his school prior to the war and it is believed he picked up aspects of the bugle during this time. It is also possible that he learned it as a part of his cadet training.

For those not aware, after the war Ted came home safe and sound at the age of 19 and soon enough was working as a professional musician - in the pit with JC Williamson's Theatre Co., playing along with the silent movies, in various dance bands (including his own) and being an occasional player with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra. He was a percussionist - I still have many of his instruments - and a fine musician.

Jonathan