Steam Trawler GY1214 "King George" minesweeper?

[LincsYellowBelly]

A fascinating site this and I hope you may be able to assist me in my quest one and all. My great grandfather, John Winchester, born in Brighton on 25-SEP-1881 joined the Royal Navy on 04-AUG-1914 as a Leading Deck Hand. He must have been a Grimsby fisherman prior to this as he lived at 205 Hope Street in the town. From a copy of his Naval records he was discharged from HMS Kingfisher on 14-JAN-1919. The next information I found was on the CWG site which states that my great grandfather was in the Mercantile Marine on the Steam Trawler "King George" and that he died, aged 38, on 24-NOV-1919 and is remembered on the Tower Hill Memorial. Does being mentioned on the CWG site mean he was on active service? Was the "King George" on minesweeping duties? Was my great grandfather entitled to a Death Plaque of which there is no memory of it in my family?

A thorough search of the Grimsby Telegraph of November and December 1919 shows no mention of the loss of this vessel! The only information I can find about "King George" is where and when she was built, gross tonnage, dimensions etc. and a list of his fellow crew members who also lost their lives aboard this same vessel! Can anyone please help me find more details about this sad loss of "King George" and her activities during 1919? A photograph of "King George" would be most appreciated. Many thanks, Christian.

[joseph]

Hi Christian,

Try the RN Mine Clearance Service, some info on link, could be the answer.

 

Regards Charles

[LincsYellowBelly]

Thanks for the link Charles. It looks like a visit to the Fleet Air Arm Museum is the order of the day! Cheers.

[Wrecktec]

The King George was requisitioned into the Fishery Reserve in 1917 and returned to the owner F. Barrett at Grimsby in 1919; no mentiom of being sunk according to Toghill

Cheers Ron

[LincsYellowBelly]

Hi Ron, If you go to the Commonwealth War Graves site and enter Winchester J. it shows that S.T. "King George" was the trawler my great grandfather was lost on. See the link [http://www.cwgc.org/...asualty=2970266 Also look at the following link for "King George" http://homepage.ntlw...imsby.trawlers/ Look under K in the Lost Fishermen section. Regards, Christian.

The King George was requisitioned into the Fishery Reserve in 1917 and returned to the owner F. Barrett at Grimsby in 1919; no mentiom of being sunk according to Toghill

Cheers Ron

[Terence Munson]

Hi - Here are some details:

24 November 1919 S.T. King George GY 1214

164 gt. 105.5ft. x 21.1ft. O.N. 113219

Built 1901 by Schofield Hagerup & Doughty, Grimsby for Monarch Steam Fishing Co. Grimsby.

Jul.1901 Registered King George GY 1214 (Monarch S.F. Co.)

Apr.1906 to Consolidated Steam Fishing & Ice Co. Grimsby.

1918-1919 Requisitioned by the Royal Navy as a Fishery Reserve Vessel.

Posted missing since 24 November 1919: Lost with all hands.

Casualties:

GOOCH Charles George (32) Deck Hand

Husband of Mrs. Gooch, of 49, Market Place, Cleethorpes.

GRIEVE John (47) First Engineman

Son of the late Mr. and Mrs. Grieve; husband of Mary Grieve (nee Willis), of 92, Lovett St., Cleethorpes. Born in London.

KINCH Charles (30) Second Hand

Son of the late Mr. and Mrs. Kinch; husband of Emily Kinch (nee Rudkin), of 12, Park View, New Cleethorpes. Born at Georgetown, British Guiana.

LUCAS Cain (55) Steward (20/11)??

Husband of Mrs. Lucas, of 14, Montague St., Grimsby. Born at Northampton.

LANGMESSER John P. (49) Second Engineer

Husband of Mrs. Langmesser, of 327, Weelsby St., Grimsby. Born in Germany.

MADIN Walter (24) Deck Hand

Son of Mrs. Madin, of 5, Chapel Yard, Grimsby. Born at Sheffield.

SYMONDS Edmund George (19) Trimmer

Son of George Henry and Laura Symonds, of 1, Burton's Buildings, St. Peter's Rd., Gt. Yarmouth.

WILSON John Henry (38) Skipper (certificate 8134)

Husband of Emma Wilson, of 37, Pen St., Boston, Lincs.

1912 vessel Ilfracombe; owner J D Marsden; skipper J H Wilson, certificate 8134

1913 vessel Ilfracombe; owner J D Marsden; skipper J Wilson, certificate 8134

WINCHESTER John (38) Third Hand

Husband of Mrs. Winchester, of 205, Hope St., Grimsby.

Listed in pre-war crew lists: Here and Here

Cheers, Terry

Edited 31 March , 2019 by Terence Munson
Correcting CWGC Links (Unsuccessful)

[LincsYellowBelly]

Wow Terry! I knew this site was good and the members very knowledgeable but you certainly have come up trumps for me with all the names and links you have given me today1 I don't know how to thank you and the other contributers for their efforts. Many, many thanks all of you, Christian.

[Wrecktec]

Hi Christian and Terry

Looks as if Toghill got it wrong in his book. I also have all the crew names in my database and as Terry says they were all lost on 24 November 1919. Would the Fishery Reserve be listed as an HMT vessel ? All of the crew are listed as being Mercantile Marine and not MMR or RNR etc as you would expect. There is nothing about the trawler in WWI Losses either ?

Cheers Ron

[Terence Munson]

Hi Christian and Terry

Looks as if Toghill got it wrong in his book. I also have all the crew names in my database and as Terry says they were all lost on 24 November 1919. Would the Fishery Reserve be listed as an HMT vessel ? All of the crew are listed as being Mercantile Marine and not MMR or RNR etc as you would expect. There is nothing about the trawler in WWI Losses either ?

Cheers Ron

Ron

I think most trawlers were taken into the Fishery Reserve in 1917 so probably King George was transferred to mine clearance in 1918. She was back fishing when lost, most probably to a drifting mine. JJ Colledge Vol. 2 lists her hired 1918-19.

Cheers, Terry

[Michael Lowrey]

Christian,

I see no indication that King George was being used as a minesweeper when she disappeared. Ron lists her as being taken into the Fishery Reserve, whch suggests she was fishing under RN control late in the war and then returned to her owners after the war ended. Minesweeping gas also a group activity at this time, vessels were paired up to do the job.

The key though is that the Tower Hill Memorial commemorates merchant marine sailors who have no know grave but the sea. If King George were being used a minesweeper, she would have an RN/RNR etc, crew, not a merchant marine crew, and the crew would be on a different memorial.

I have seen cases like this before. What happened is that the King George disappeared and it was presumed that she sank on a mine. The powers that be were fairly liberal in granting commemoration to the crews of missing vessels, and that's the case here.

Best wishes,

Michael

[LincsYellowBelly]

Thankyou Charles, Ron, Terry and Michael for your inputs. I am forever indebted to you all. Many thanks once again, Christian.

Christian,

I see no indication that King George was being used as a minesweeper when she disappeared. Ron lists her as being taken into the Fishery Reserve, whch suggests she was fishing under RN control late in the war and then returned to her owners after the war ended. Minesweeping gas also a group activity at this time, vessels were paired up to do the job.

The key though is that the Tower Hill Memorial commemorates merchant marine sailors who have no know grave but the sea. If King George were being used a minesweeper, she would have an RN/RNR etc, crew, not a merchant marine crew, and the crew would be on a different memorial.

I have seen cases like this before. What happened is that the King George disappeared and it was presumed that she sank on a mine. The powers that be were fairly liberal in granting commemoration to the crews of missing vessels, and that's the case here.

Best wishes,

Michael

[Terence Munson]

The powers that be were fairly liberal in granting commemoration to the crews of missing vessels, and that's the case here.

Best wishes, Michael

Michael

I don’t think these commemorations were in any way granted without due care and consideration. Nine of the eleven Grimsby vessels lost in 1919, sailed for the North Sea fishing grounds and were not seen or heard from again. This was an unprecedented number of unexplained losses for a year in peacetime. All were given up as lost with all hands and presumed mined. the crews (a total of 92 men), commemorated.

In the fourteen and a half pre-war years of the twentieth century 119 Grimsby vessels were lost, 106 of them listed as: Stranding (52): Collision (35): Foundering in severe weather etc. (19). The remaining 13 (less than one a year), were unexplained ie “Sailed for the North Sea fishing grounds and were not seen or heard from again”.

The powers that be got it right with Queenborough, but I have a nagging doubt that they did with Reverto.

Cheers, Terry

[Michael Lowrey]

Terry,

There seems to have been a general presumption (with a few exceptions) that ships, both fishing vessels and cargo vessels, that disappeared in British waters were lost through war-related causes. This extended to areas and time periods were the primary threat were not mines but rather U-boats. Oliver and I have been able to attribute out several previously unexplained ship disappearances to specific U-boat attacks. In every case but one (a straggler from a convoy well away from shore), the crew was already in the CWGC database.

Was this policy warranted? Sure, the majority of ship disappearances in British waters were indeed war related. Does this mean that every ship that disappeared really was a war loss? Almost certainly no. There are a couple of missing ships whose crews are in the CWGC database were a loss to mine seems unlikely for which there just aren’t any matching sinking claims by U-boat. And ships do still sink in storms during war time. (There are even more questionable cases than Reverto.)

Most people who aren't familiar with the war at sea will assume that because a crewmember of a ship posted as "missing" is commemorated, that the disappearnace has been linked to something specific, an exact minefield, some U-boat attack etc. That isn't necessarily the case, which is why I explain the situation the way I do.

Best wishes,

Michael

[Guest]

My Grandfather was John Henry Wilson who was listed as Skipper of the King George and lived in Boston. I also would like to find out more information regarding the ship and those lost at sea.  Maurice Beeton Histon  Cambridge

[DavidOwen]

Welcome to the forum

The Grimsby Fishing Heritage  museum has hosted an exhibition on the lost trawlers from Grimsby

If you search for his name here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/advanced-search  you may get more information.

Good luck!

David

[Terence Munson]

24 November 1919 S.T. King George GY 1214

164 gt. 105.5ft. x 21.1ft. O.N. 113219

Built 1901 by Schofield Hagerup & Doughty, Grimsby; for the Monarch Steam Fishing Co. Grimsby.

Jul.1901 Registered King George GY 1214 (Monarch S.F. Co.)

Apr.1906 to Consolidated Steam Fishing & Ice Co. Grimsby.

1918 Requisitioned into the Fishery Reserve. Returned 1919.

Posted missing since 24 November 1919: Lost with all nine hands.

 

Saturday 17 January 1920 - Lincolnshire Standard and Boston Guardian.

                                              ____

      The Grimsby steam trawler King George, owned by the Consolidated Steam Fishing Company,

was on Thursday officially given up as lost, after an absence of six weeks. The King George, which

carried a crew of ten, left port for the North Sea fishing grounds on November 24th. on a voyage

which averages about five days.
                                              ____

 

WILSON, John Henry (37) Skipper. Certificate 8134.

Born 1 July 1882, Grimsby. Husband of Emma Wilson, of 37, Pen Street, Boston, Lincs.

Pre-war Grimsby crew lists: Second Hand on the "Harwich", 1911 and Skipper of the "Ilfracombe" 1911 - 1913.

Service Record: Wilson, John Henry, No. 436 WSA. RNR. Can be downloaded for £3.50p on this: Link 

CWGC casualty/2970238/ Click: Link

 

Terry

p.s. I have the full list of casualties if you would like it?

[horatio2]

The record of John WILSON as a skipper 436.WSA only covers his service in the Auxiliary Patrol Trawler Section RNR from 1914 to June 1917, when he was discharged unfit. Thereafter he had further service from 10/9/1917 as a skipper in the Fishery Reserve under official number 354.WFS. From June 1918 a number of Fishery Reserve crews were brought into the RNR Trawler Section "for Emergency Service". The skippers concerned (including John WILSON) were given new 'WSE' official numbers and a new date of seniority for their new WSE Skipper's Warrant. In late 1918 Navy Lists such skippers often appear with both WFS and WSE number and seniority. John WILSON became 32.WSE with seniority 26/6/1918.The Emergency Section was disbanded on 31/12/1918. 

Edited 30 March , 2019 by horatio2

[Terence Munson]

Presumably the SWB RN12591 he received was awarded because he was discharged unfit June 1917