Y & L and then Labour Corps

[stevem49]

Hello Each

I am attempting to help a lady sort out her family of WW1 servicemen.

Her Gt Grandfather George Harm has on his MIC - 40214 Y&L Regiment and then 652120 Labour Corps.

Is it possible to get a Battalion from his 40214 number?

Any help would be really appreciated.

Steve M

[The Inspector]

Hi Steve

Did George (1889-1972?) have a brother Charles Frederick who was killed 14.10.17, both involved in the same explosion? Public tree on Ancestry. If so it may help to start with his brother's details as his No./Regt are known.

Regards Barry

[stevem49]

Yes that is the man. Although his brother was in the NF so highly unlikely that they where in the same explosion. The nearest Y&L Battalion was the 6th Bn, 32nd Brigade, 11th Div. I think the lady was trying to prove or disprove the hit by same shell theory. Fairly certain that I have disproved that one. George was apparently gassed (mustard) which may have been the reason that he was moved to LC.

Thanks for the help, I will check the Ancestry link.

Steve

[stevem49]

Further to the above!

The MIC does not give a theatre of entry, so no help there. His records have not survived.

The only hope would seem to be the numbers in the Y&L and LC.

Steve

[Verrico2009]

Charles Frederick's MIC (under Harme) indicates he died of wounds. Could that make any difference as to whether George might have been in the area and survived? The note also mentions trench fever. I would think it's possible that as a result of his experiences he genuinely believed he was involved in the same incident that killed his brother. The tree seems to derive from their mother's side of the family, but I note his is one of the few photos used.

[kenf48]

The difficulty of attempting to ascribe a Battalion to a regimental number is illustrated by:-

Pte 40216 Harry Moxon 2nd/4th Bn Y & L age 20

Pte 40217 Robert Layland 8th Bn Y & L age19

Both deaths are recorded on CWGC in June and July 1918 respectively, allowing 4 months for training this suggests (and I put it no higher than that without further research) earliest mobilisation around late 1917 early 1918 which would preclude both Harm brothers being around Flanders in October 1917

The only sure way is by reference to the rolls which as you are probably aware are not available online it depends what you're trying to prove/disprove but if you could establish date of mobilisation that would remove the 'same shell' from the equation.

Ken

[Verrico2009]

Charles Frederick is commemorated on the Tyne Cot memorial: http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=838523

I don't suppose the medal rolls would give any information? Don't mind adding it to my list for my next Kew visit at the beginning of September if it isn't resolved before then.

[stevem49]

Once again my thanks. The ladies daughter will be visiting Tyne Cot next week when over there with the ATC.

It could be that the lady herself put the tree on ancestry but I am awaiting a reply on that one.

She did not mention that Charles died of wounds! and it is possible that the brothers did meet prior to his death.

If george was in the 6th Y&L then it could have been during the same 'shelling' but not the same shell.

One of my 9th Bn lads was killed in July and his brother from another battalion visited the body prior to burial.

Verrico

The medal rolls will (should) give his battalion but he may be on the LC rolls and not the Y&L.

I will do some more research but feel the rolls are the only hope.

Again my thanks

Steve

[Verrico2009]

It's not the first time I've seen DoW on an MIC later translated as KIA etc, Steve. In one set of service papers I think "missing", then "DoW" became "KIA" after repeated enquiries from the mother, with no obvious paper trail to back it up. I'm not sure what the criteria was and relatives often had very little to go on. Perhaps KIA was kinder than wondering how long they'd suffered.

I suspect you're right about it being on the LC rolls, but sometimes they have extra notations so always worth a try and not very time-consuming if I have the reference number to hand. I generally post on the look-up section before I go on a first-come-first-served basis nearer the time.

Louise

[stevem49]

Lousie - Many thanks, I will keep an eye on the posts

It may have been the Grandson of Charles who listed the family tree on ancestry and not my contact. She gave him the family tree.

I have now seen the MIC and also an entry from a book concerning the 22 NF. From this I believe it is possible they were hit by the same 'shell'. The Battalion moved up to Elverdinghe on 13th October and then to the front on the 14th. On the night of 13/14th a number of bombers attacked and bombed the camp causing many casualties. If George was indeeed in the 6th Y&L then he could also have been in the camp on the way out of the line. The 32nd brigade took part in the attack on 9th October and were relieved on 11th, returning via Essex Farm to camp 'Dirty Bucket'. The NF mentioned that the camp was full to overflowing and men could not find accomodation. The brothers may well have met up and the same bomb got 'em both. If george was by this time an LC man, then again he could be in that area. So possibly the family tale is true.

One of my men was killed in July and his brother from another battalion visited the body prior to burial soanything is possible.

I also know of a man who died of wounds but he was buried under an 'unknown Notts & Derby' headstone. Therefore Charles may have suffered the same fate.

Steve