Researching 2nd Lt. Edward Edwards 57854

[kiwi_steve]

Hi all, I am researching a Kiwi who joined the RAMC in around 1915 and was (attached?) to the 4th Battalion of the Worcestershire Brigade. This is for the history of our local Scout Group - as Edward was (we believe) our first Scoutmaster way back in 1908-09ish.

I have a few things I don't quite understand that I've searched for but can't quite straighten out in my head. I'm hoping to get some help here.

First of all, he applied to be a chaplain, but was turned down. He then joined the RAMC. From what I have read, the RAMC were separate from the fighting units but I'm guessing that some of them were 'attached' to units so that there would be field medics in the thick of the fighting to help wounded soldiers? Would this be why he was with the Worcs? As he was a chaplain in the Anglican church I couldn't imagine him carrying a rifle at all - although that is just gut feeling, nothing concrete.

Secondly, I have two conflicting reports about what the 4th Worcs were doing on the day Edward was killed - one (Stacke) shows they were very busy and many of them were casulties whereas another report from Alan Greveson on the world war message boards shows the day in questions was very quiet (I've had no reply back from him as to where he got that information). I would dearly love to know what really happened in the last day or two if I can find out.

The information I have thus far is being assembled on this page:

http://stmatts.co.nz/chief_scoutmaster_reverend_edward_edwards

Many thanks in advance

Steve

[headgardener]

Nice write-up, but you seem to have missed the point about his service with the Worcesters; he started his army career as a Pte in the RAMC, and probably had no connection with the Worcs Rgt at that time. At some stage he was commissioned as a 2/Lt into the Wocestershire Rgt, at which point his connection with the RAMC would have ended. He wouldn't have carried a gun while serving with the RAMC, he most definately would as an officer in an infantry battalion (the Worcs Rgt).

Have you checked his entry on the CWGC database?

Not at all unusual for very religious men to be prepared to carry weapons. I've come across several men of the cloth who served in the ranks or as officers, and many died in combat.(edit; I'm talking about men who weren't serving as Chaplains).

[Hywyn]

Not at all unusual for very religious men to be prepared to carry weapons. I've come across several men of the cloth who served in the ranks or as officers, and many died in combat.(edit; I'm talking about men who weren't serving as Chaplains).

Agreed. I have an example of William Evans Jones from Port Dinorwic, North Wales who enlisted in RWF whilst at Theological College. He was wounded sufficiently in his first few week in the trenches to be discharged. He then joins as a Chaplain and was killed , attached to the 2nd RWF, whilst going forward with the front wave of an attack.

Going back to Edward.

CWGC

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=1541178

Officers died in the Great War: Killed in Action, 4th Worcestershire

I can't see their War Diary in the online downloadable section of the National Archives.

Hywyn

[sotonmate]

Steve

There is probably a Service record in the WO339 series at the National Archives. Unfortunately there are 17 of them with the name EDWARDS E ! The only ways to find which is he is to look in them all physically OR some nice person here with the WO338 index will select his file number for you. It is often the case that a file is present in WO374,quite a few odf the ones that I have read there are for deceased Officers,and it deals with their Army estate,however,there are no files there for this name. So,it's all down to WO339 for his history,which will include his earlier service papers.

The 4 Worcesters War Diary is also at Kew under WO95/2309,and also has to be seen there,as it is not yet digital.The Battalion had been in three Battles of the Scarpe up to early May 1917,and had not been in further battles after that time and up to EEs death.They would have continued (in their rotation with others)to hold the line though,so it is likely that he was killed by raiding/sniping/artillery action. The Diary will show the reason,it is best at naming Officer incidents above others.

Sotonmate

[kiwi_steve]

Nice write-up, but you seem to have missed the point about his service with the Worcesters; he started his army career as a Pte in the RAMC, and probably had no connection with the Worcs Rgt at that time. At some stage he was commissioned as a 2/Lt into the Wocestershire Rgt, at which point his connection with the RAMC would have ended. He wouldn't have carried a gun while serving with the RAMC, he most definately would as an officer in an infantry battalion (the Worcs Rgt).

Thats something I never even considered to be honest... but looking at his medal card I can see that now. There are three entries - Pte. RAMC, Pte Worc R, and 2/Lieut. Worc R. Following that line of thought he transferred from the RAMC to the Worcs and was promoted from the ranks there. Do I have that right?

CWGC

http://www.cwgc.org/...asualty=1541178

Officers died in the Great War: Killed in Action, 4th Worcestershire

I can't see their War Diary in the online downloadable section of the National Archives.

I have that link to the CWGC, but thank you for posting it. Its interesting that it shows Edward's nationality as United Kingdom. He was born here in New Zealand.

And I believe that their War Diary can only be viewed at the library - which is just a little difficult for me, being on the other side of the world

Thanks guys, the insights are appreciated.

Steve

[kiwi_steve]

There is probably a Service record in the WO339 series at the National Archives. Unfortunately there are 17 of them with the name EDWARDS E ! The only ways to find which is he is to look in them all physically OR some nice person here with the WO338 index will select his file number for you. It is often the case that a file is present in WO374,quite a few odf the ones that I have read there are for deceased Officers,and it deals with their Army estate,however,there are no files there for this name. So,it's all down to WO339 for his history,which will include his earlier service papers.

The 4 Worcesters War Diary is also at Kew under WO95/2309,and also has to be seen there,as it is not yet digital.The Battalion had been in three Battles of the Scarpe up to early May 1917,and had not been in further battles after that time and up to EEs death.They would have continued (in their rotation with others)to hold the line though,so it is likely that he was killed by raiding/sniping/artillery action. The Diary will show the reason,it is best at naming Officer incidents above others.

Well, hopefully that nice person you mention above will step forward with some info from the index - and if anyone here is going to the library at Kew for any reason and would be able to have a look at W095/2309 for me I would sure appreciate it (or is it not that simple?)

I wonder if the wife would approve a trip to the UK? Hmm... probably not...

Thanks for the info

Steve

[KennethB]

Steve,

Nice site. Being a Scouter (Canada) I get that the youth need to understand the importance of the past generations service and sacrifices. My great grand dad was a Worcestershire Yeoman (mounted) and served with the Australian Mounted Division in Palestine. Might I suggest that you contact the Worcestershire museum to see if they can help you with the search.

http://www.worcestercitymuseums.org.uk/coll/worsor/wos3.htm#r3g

Good hunting,

Ken

[sotonmate]

Kiwi Steve

Noted (from the outset!)that you wouldn't get home on the bus on the same day after a visit to Kew. I will normally help "old Colonial friends" with their wishes,but don't yet know when I am going to Kew again. It's holiday month so such things sit on the back burner.

What you need to do is send me a personal message (or start a personal conversation as they now call it) here around the second or third week in September if you haven't resolved your needs by then. I can take a digipic of the War Diary pages for May 1917 and get a summary from the WO339 file,but hoping that someone here can narrow it down to the right one before then.If you haven't done that yet then click on my title to the left of this message and find the send a message link there.

What you should do about that is start a conversation with STEVE E as he has a WO338 index !!!(Sorry Steve E,hope it doesn't inundate you with enquiries,but you have rescued members, unasked, in the past !)

Sotonmate

[kiwi_steve]

Noted (from the outset!)that you wouldn't get home on the bus on the same day after a visit to Kew. I will normally help "old Colonial friends" with their wishes,but don't yet know when I am going to Kew again. It's holiday month so such things sit on the back burner.

What you need to do is send me a personal message (or start a personal conversation as they now call it) here around the second or third week in September if you haven't resolved your needs by then. I can take a digipic of the War Diary pages for May 1917 and get a summary from the WO339 file,but hoping that someone here can narrow it down to the right one before then.If you haven't done that yet then click on my title to the left of this message and find the send a message link there.

What you should do about that is start a conversation with STEVE E as he has a WO338 index !!!(Sorry Steve E,hope it doesn't inundate you with enquiries,but you have rescued members, unasked, in the past !)

Thank you for the offer of assistance and the heads up on who to ask

[kiwi_steve]

Steve,

Nice site. Being a Scouter (Canada) I get that the youth need to understand the importance of the past generations service and sacrifices. My great grand dad was a Worcestershire Yeoman (mounted) and served with the Australian Mounted Division in Palestine. Might I suggest that you contact the Worcestershire museum to see if they can help you with the search.

http://www.worcester...or/wos3.htm#r3g

Good hunting,

Ken

Thanks Ken... I've put a lot of time into the site, and the research on Edward has kind of taken on a life of its own. Every time I find something on him it drives me on to find more. I'm going to be giving a talk on him in a few months at our Scout Halls 50th birthday celebrations so I'm hoping to get it all tidied away by then. At that point I'll use what I have learned to work on my own relatives who served and were killed in the war.

Steve

[headgardener]

Thats something I never even considered to be honest... but looking at his medal card I can see that now. There are three entries - Pte. RAMC, Pte Worc R, and 2/Lieut. Worc R. Following that line of thought he transferred from the RAMC to the Worcs and was promoted from the ranks there. Do I have that right?

'Probably', is the short answer. The long answer is... he initially served with the RAMC, then the MIC lists service with the Worcesters, doesn't list any rank, and indicates that he had the same service number as for his service with the RAMC. Then it lists him serving with the Worcs as a 2/Lt.

The picture regarding his transfer from the RAMC to the Worcesters isn't very clear; if he transferred to the Worcesters as an OR (Other Rank) his regimental number would have changed. So there are 3 possibilities;

1. he served with the RAMC and was attached to the Worcs Rgt in some way and this is what is recorded on the MIC. He was then commissioned into the Worcs Rgt.

2. he transferred from the RAMC to the ranks of the Worcesters, where he served for some time before being commissioned. In which case the Worcs Rgt service number on the MIC is wrong.

3. he was commissioned directly from the RAMC into the Worcesters (in which case the MIC is wrong in its implication that he transferred to the ranks of the Worcs Rgt before being commissioned).

I hope that made sense. You'll only know for sure by getting his service papers. Also check the OR's service papers online; occasionally you'll find the papers of a man who was commissioned, even though these papers should have been transferred to his officer's file.

[KennethB]

Steve,

Couple of other sites for you.

This gives a brief summary of the 4th Batts actions.

http://www.1914-1918.net/worcester.htm

This is the regimental website. Your scouter is listed on the honour role. There is also a contact on the home page for the archives.

http://www.worcestershireregiment.com/wr.php?main=inc/welcome

YIS

Ken

[kiwi_steve]

'Probably', is the short answer. The long answer is... he initially served with the RAMC, then the MIC lists service with the Worcesters, doesn't list any rank, and indicates that he had the same service number as for his service with the RAMC. Then it lists him serving with the Worcs as a 2/Lt.

The picture regarding his transfer from the RAMC to the Worcesters isn't very clear; if he transferred to the Worcesters as an OR (Other Rank) his regimental number would have changed. So there are 3 possibilities;

1. he served with the RAMC and was attached to the Worcs Rgt in some way and this is what is recorded on the MIC. He was then commissioned into the Worcs Rgt.

2. he transferred from the RAMC to the ranks of the Worcesters, where he served for some time before being commissioned. In which case the Worcs Rgt service number on the MIC is wrong.

3. he was commissioned directly from the RAMC into the Worcesters (in which case the MIC is wrong in its implication that he transferred to the ranks of the Worcs Rgt before being commissioned).

I hope that made sense. You'll only know for sure by getting his service papers. Also check the OR's service papers online; occasionally you'll find the papers of a man who was commissioned, even though these papers should have been transferred to his officer's file.

Ok, so the plot thickens... I'll do some more research and see what I can come up with. Hopefully I can access the service papers... Where would I find the OR's online papers?

Thanks heaps for this information

Steve

[headgardener]

Where would I find the OR's online papers?

First of all, as he was an officer his OR's papers SHOULD be with his officer's papers, and they aren't available online. You'll have to get someone to look at the orignals (if they exist) at the National Archives. Having said that, I'd suggest you check the OR's papers online as you will very rarely find some papers relating to men who were subsequently commissioned.

To do this you'll need access to Ancestry, they've got them amongst their 'military' databases; there are 2 classes ('service papers' and 'pension papers'). Don't worry too much about these classifications, if his papers are there (remember that it is highly unlikely) then they'll probably be in the 'service papers' series, though I've found so many anomalies, including papers in both series', that I'd always consider checking both.

[Ghost]

As pointed out to me on this forum, the nationality on CWGC list is the nationality of the force the casualty served with, not the nationality of the casualty. In this case he served with a U.K. force.

Alan

[kiwi_steve]

First of all, as he was an officer his OR's papers SHOULD be with his officer's papers, and they aren't available online. You'll have to get someone to look at the orignals (if they exist) at the National Archives. Having said that, I'd suggest you check the OR's papers online as you will very rarely find some papers relating to men who were subsequently commissioned.

Ah well, I'll wait to see if he is in the index, then go about figuring out how to view the material in the archives or having someone check for me. Thanks for that info.

As pointed out to me on this forum, the nationality on CWGC list is the nationality of the force the casualty served with, not the nationality of the casualty. In this case he served with a U.K. force.

That explains that then Thank you for clearing it up. So much to learn...

Steve