Bullecourt Burial Sites Found

[David_Ellis]

Hi Lou,

I have sent you a private message in regards to this.

Cheers

Dave.

[59165]

[surely you are not suggesting that the landowner of the paddocks to the North East odf the Rue De Douai is the same gentleman who owns the paddocks to the South West?

Bonjour.

Oh!

The N/E end of the Douai rd!

Here's me thinking we were on about landowners in Bullecourt,not Riencourt.So sorry.

Bonjela,

Dave.

[Lou Bougias]

Merci!

Greetings from Melbourne!

[59165]

Nothing to do with bodies but,for those who want a better idea than Google earth gives you,-

[Lou Bougias]

You are very wise 59165!

[AnthonyStaunton]

It is interesting to know that although we were fairly adamant on recording POW's statements after the war, this particular battle (ie 1st Bullecourt) is missing 90% of its statements. That alone is a "smoking gun" to indicate that there is something untoward here.

In the First World War, Britain and the Commonwealth lost 530,000 dead in France alone. For the next ten years thousands of men and millions of pounds were spent recovering bodies. In all 320,000 of the 530,000 killed were recovered and identified. Over 50 per cent, 110,000 of the 210,000 dead who have no known grave have already been recovered but were never identified. I do not believe something untoward happened at Bullecourt.

[Lou Bougias]

Nothing untoward happened,its just that we ran out of allocated funds and have never gone back to look for them.

[taylormade]

Hello

I have just stumbled across your forum and wondered to myself why I haven't seen it before. I have watched Fromelles unfold with great interest and secretly wished that my cousin who is still missing from the 1st Battle of Bullecourt could be found and now there is a small glimmer of hope that this could come true. I have researched the 2 brothers in my family for 3 long years and I like to think I know them as my long lost Uncles that I never met. Lambis or anyone of his team, if you are reading this please keep up the good work and us the families will wait for how ever long it takes but please do not keep us in the dark on how things are going even if it just a line or two.

I am currently writing a book (Fictional) on the 1st Bullecourt Battle and what exactly happened to my cousin's of the 16th Battalion at Riencourt. If you are interested in my soldiers they are Pte 5745 Michael Meginess MIA/KIA 11-4-1917 Bullecourt , never been found. Red Cross files states his body was seen in the trench but I am unsure if it is OG1 or OG2 as Pte Tom Martin did not state it in the file. Also Pte Martin stated that he saw his brother on a stretcher the day before the battle, this is not true according to one of their cousin's who made it back home after being a POW, Pte 5680 Charles Bunter told family on his return that the 4 cousin's went over the top together in the first wave of the 16th Battalion "A" Company under Percy Black. Pte 5746 William Simmons Meginess died of wounds 13-4-1917 in German hands. Buried at Cabaret Rouge Cemetery, Souchez, France. Two of their cousin's Pte 5680 Charles Bunter who I have mentioned above was wounded and had his left leg and right ankle amputated by German Doctors and Pte 5681 John Joseph Bunter, his brother was wounded in the battle and later died in a rations party in the Battle of Polygon Wood.

As you can see I am very proud of my cousins and would dearly love to find the body of Michael Meginess if the fates allow and not just be a name on a wall at Villers Bretonneaux of which I have personally touched and thankful for the opportunity. I have waited this long, surely we can all wait a little longer and I know that going through the right channels can be dragging and boring but as long as we keep shouting and long and hard enough, someone will come up with the right answer we all seek for these men. We all know that they deserve a final individual burial, let us tell the rest of the world and our fellow Australians that these men sacrifice them selves and laid down their lives for you. Let's hope that money is not an issue here because these men are human beings that have never been forgotten by their families.

Thanking you

Sharon

[Lou Bougias]

Hi Sharon,

Have you seen their National Archives files?

They are different to the Red Cross files held by the AWM.

Can you email me at Loubougias@gmail.com please.

Any information you may have will be very valueable,

Lou

[taylormade]

Hi Lou

Thank you for the heads up on the files I will look into them asap. Any info is greatly appreciated. And if any one else has anything on the 16th Battalion or of Bullecourt that I may have missed I would love to hear from you.

Cheers

Sharon

[Lou Bougias]

Hi all,

Anyone know where I can get a copy of this book?

cheers,

Lou

Author: Adolf Deutelmoser Title: Die 27. Infanterie-Division im Weltkrieg 1914-18. Band 5 von Württembergs Heer im Weltkrieg.

1925 at Bergers Lit. Büro (publishing company):

[Auimfo]

The short answer Lou - Nope!

But you might try here. http://www.zeughaus-braun.de/militaergeschichte1wk/truppen-und-regimentschroniken.html?limit=all&mode=list

They don't seem to have it but might know where to find one. (you might have to find someone that is fluemnt in German to send an email though).

Cheers,

Tim L.

[truthergw]

Hi all,

Anyone know where I can get a copy of this book?

cheers,

Lou

Author: Adolf Deutelmoser Title: Die 27. Infanterie-Division im Weltkrieg 1914-18. Band 5 von Württembergs Heer im Weltkrieg.

1925 at Bergers Lit. Büro (publishing company):

I'd have thought that enquiries on German language Great war sites might have been more hopeful than here but did you know that ABE has a German setup? ABE. DE. I have found a few books on it.

[History fan]

It's amazing that these burial sites are still being found almost 100 years after the battle itself. I hope they are able to identify all the remains and contact family members.

[AnthonyStaunton]

Here is the link to the published story: http://www.heraldsun...6-1225901816217

The Herald-Sun article states "Of the 5700 Australians who took part in the Bullecourt battle in April 1917, about 2500 were killed and 866 of the dead were buried in unmarked, mass graves."

Those figures are clearly wrong.

Bean does not provide a breakdown for killed or died of wounds, wounded and captured.

Bean does say total casualties were about 3300 of whom 1200 were captured.

Tthe 866 figure is likely the total killed or died of wounds.

Of the 866 killed or died of wounds how many are buried in identified graves?

Is there an estimate of how many are buried in either unnamed graves or unnamed Australian graves in CWGC ceremonies?

[Lou Bougias]

These are the figures that I have at the minute, which I do not believe to be accurate.

866 still M.I.A .

1128 captured.

Advanced in to battle.@5700.

I am currently working on the nominal rolls, the red cross files and the AIF project.

Slowly slowly,catch a monkey.

Maybe ebay has the book?

I'll check.

[Lou Bougias]

The brigade diaries also give figures, but unfortunately they too are inaccurate as the brigadiers were writing 2-3 days after the battle, and they had no possible idea as to how many were captured or killed and buried on the field.

One other question, Murray ran up the communication trench that headed to the right of Riencourt.

Was that trench called emu or ostritch?

[Lou Bougias]

Wriring in 1937,Major General Brand, who commanded the 4th Brigade quotes the Brigades losses as,

75 Officers, and 2661 other ranks killed,wounded and missing.

The brigades war diary states 79 and 2260 OR's

12th brigades war diary, has the following figures,

Officers, 27

Or's.. 882

total 909

4th brigade

officers, 79

Or's 2260

total 2339

total 4 th division casualties

officers 106

Or's 3142

total 3248

[Lou Bougias]

It is interesting to note that in 1921 Justice Wyndeyer of the NSW Supreme Court toured the battlefields, including Bullecourt, and demanded that the CWG Commission continue its work of exhuming and honouring the fallen.

Unforunately, his calls and the calls of his commitee of "prominent Australians" were not listened to, and the excavations ceased @ October of 1921.

[AnthonyStaunton]

It is interesting to note that in 1921 Justice Wyndeyer of the NSW Supreme Court toured the battlefields, including Bullecourt, and demanded that the CWG Commission continue its work of exhuming and honouring the fallen. Unfortunately, his calls and the calls of his committee of "prominent Australians" were not listened to, and the excavations ceased @ October of 1921.

What is a good reference to these representations?

[AnthonyStaunton]

These are the figures that I have at the minute, which I do not believe to be accurate.

866 still M.I.A .

1128 captured.

Advanced in to battle.@5700.

I am currently working on the nominal rolls, the red cross files and the AIF project.

Slowly slowly,catch a monkey.

Maybe ebay has the book?

I'll check.

MIA was an American term from the Vietnam War. The Australian term is missing. Australians missing at Bullecourt are commemorated at Villers Bretonneux. In 1927, Lord Plumer at the opening of the Menin Gate said of the missing in Belgium "They are not missing they are here'. A similar sentiment could be expressed for those commemorated at Villers Bretonneux.

You are quite right to query the 866 figure. It is the number who died on 11 April 1917 but includes a small number of men killed with units other than the 4th Division. There are 92 deaths in the following two days and some of those casualties would have been men who died of wounds received on 11 April. But the 866 figure is a good approximate for the number of Australians killed at Bullecourt.

More than 100 bodies were recovered and identified. The remaining 700+ are commemorated at Villers Bretonneux but a number were recovered but not identified. Those identified as Australian are buried in graves that identify them as Australians. Australians recovered but not identified as Australian are buried in graves marked as unknown. The number of unrecovered missing is much less than the total of 866 killed.

I do appreciate that work on the Nominal Roll, the Red Cross files and the AIF Database is slow going but that valuable work will not identify those who were recovered and are buried in either Unknown Australian or Unknown graves.

[AnthonyStaunton]

The Mayor of Bullecourt, Jules Laude, who is holidaying in Australia, visited the Australian War Memorial on 1 December 2010. Mr Laude, who wore his mayoral sash, with family and friends examined maps and aerial photographs that showed the destruction of the village in two battles in 1917. Mr Laude pointed out landmarks and described the battles fought by the Australian in April and May 1917. He said Bullecourt marks Anzac Day every year and school children learn about the role Australians played in the battles.

[taylormade]

Lou

try this web site for the book you are looking for

http://libraries.admin.ch/cgi-bin/gwalex/chameleon

found it under the authors name. Email me if you can't find it.

Cheers

Sharon

[nigelcave]

I see that the old Fromelles style debate about whether to exhume or not is likely to be reprised in respect of any remains that may be at Bullecourt.

Interesting to see if the argument that "a man fallen in battle at least deserves a named gravestone" continues to hold up if the costs ratchet up. For me it's immutable and axiomatic.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/leave-our-fallen-war-heroes-to-rest-in-peace-near-bullecourt/story-e6frfhqf-1225902507550

Reference article - most peculiar that his relative spent years looking for Newfoundlanders and burying them at Beaumont Hamel etc... What, only looking for Newfoundlanders? And burying them all in one cemetery at Beaumont Hamel? How very odd, to say the least.

I think to be fair to the CWGC they have followed a policy of burial if remains could be reasonably identified as Commonwealth; and that they identified where they could (which I think was not a matter of their responsibility but of the appropriate department of the relevant Commonwealth country (who knows who has the responsibility for eg Chinese Labour Corps?). The point is that in much more recent times the whold ID question is far more technologically complex. The cost of all this is not the CWGC's (in the sense of routine budget) but the governments', as I understand it. For relatively simple reburials I imagine that the CWGC manages that without calling for extra funding; but something like Fromelles required the rrelevant governments - in this case Australia and the UK - to pay the extra cost (see this year's CWGC accounts). So, whatever the costing implications, it is for governments to decide and not for a decision by the CWGC. Someone can perhaps put me right if I am writing twaddle - not beyond the reasnable bounds of possibility!

[John Coates]

As an interesting footnote, one of the Australian Bullecourt missing from May 1917 is a 22 year old cricketer by the name of Norman Callaway. His record of being the youngest scorer of a century on debut for New South Wales was only beaten very recently. Norman in fact scored a double century in what was his only ever game of first class cricket.

Just another example of the talent and potential lost in the Great War.

Norman Callaway was not the only NSW sporting record holder who died in the second Battle of Bullecourt. John Stuntz, who was a Rugby League player went over the top on the early morning of 3.5.17 and was cut down by machine gun fire during the course of the morning. Johnno, as he was known, still holds the record (along with two others), of most tries on debut in a first grade game in Australia. He was one of the original Australian Rugby League Pioneers, and later became one of the first players to play in the UK during the Australian off season when he played 19 games for Warrington in season 1909-10, scoring 13 tries.

He is another whose body was never recovered.

I became aware of John Stuntz early this year when I started a study of Warrington Northern Union (now Rugby League) players who died in the Great War.