Scottish Rifles

[n252901]

Hi All,

Attached below is a photo from my late Grandmothers collection, which we presume may contain a relation or a close family friend (name unknown)

We have relatives in the DLI and the Coldstream Guards, but none known in the Scottish Rifles.

Over the past few weeks, I have again learnt loads from this site, and just because regiment is situated away from our family base, doesn't mean they couldn't have joined up to this regiment. However I am still trying to learn enough to be able to comprehend my relatives' part in the war, so please forgive me if these seem simple questions

Are there any eagle eyed souls out there who can glean ANY information from this photo.

Would the highest ranking always be sitting down? or might it just be rearranged for the aesthetic sake of the photograph.

The 1st and 3rd (l-r) on the front row (as does the third from right on the back row), appear to have their trousers wrapped round with fabric, (riding? to allow bigger boots over), and yet have both have different headwear

There is only a single member of the SR with the surname, Allen, who died, as a Sergeant. The Allen side of the family tree is currently a bit shaky so there may well be some undiscovered brothers/ cousins.

However on an interesting note, another relative 1st Btn Coldstream guards was shot and wounded on the 22 December 1922, near La Bassee. On the 21 st and 22nd 1st Btn Coldstream guards were deployed along with the "Camerons" (is this just an old name for the Cameronians) just ahead of them near La Bassee to take a fence close to Rue d'Ouvert.

On the 21st/22nd the CG took about 200 casualties, my Great Grandfather being one of them I presume.

If my G Grandfather was repatriated with a Cameronian, might they have swapped pictures as mark of friendship, and is this likely to be a man he shared troubled times with, or would they unlikely to carry anything other than photos of sweethearts and family with them in the battlefield. And I am barking up the wrong tree

Many thanks for any information you can share, no matter how obvious it might seem

Jack

[Verrico2009]

The only thing I can think to comment on at the moment is that it seems the man on the front row far right has a chevron on his left forearm. I think this would be a "good conduct stripe":-

Good Conduct Stripes

On 1 March 1881 a GO moved good conduct chevrons from the right arm to the left arm. Large chevrons worn point-up on the left forearm, similar in size to that which an NCO wears point down on the upper arm, were for good conduct. In WW1 they were worn by soldiers under the rank of Corporal, 2nd Corporal or

Bombardier, for the following service:

1 chevron = 2 years

2 chevrons = 6 years

3 chevrons = 12 years

4 chevrons = 18 years

5 chevrons = 23 years

6 chevrons = 28 years

and apparently it could go as high as 10 chevrons for 50 years.

or

1 chevron = After 2 years service

2 chevrons = After 5 years service

3 chevrons = After 12 years service

and so on...

http://archiver.root...1-04/0986399451

The same site notes that "Qualifying service for chevrons ceased on 1 May 1920, and their wearing wasdiscontinued in 1922" but not sure if it relates to good conduct or overseas service ones as it appears after the latter is discussed. If both, it could help date your photo.

Oh yes, and the legwear - puttees!

"During the Great War (WW1) puttees generally consisted of what was effectively a wide khaki bandage wound around the ankle to just below

the knee. These puttees were wound around the calf in a uniform manner. The object of these puttees being to seal the junction of the boots and

the trousers, to prevent the ingress of foreign objects and to provide a degree of comfort."

http://archiver.root...0-07/0964312760

Irritatingly there's no previews here but you might find looking through the names interesting: http://www.ww1photos...ighlanders.html Who knows, there might even be a copy of your photo in there!

I can't remember why now but I was under the impression those high tunic collars were later than my 1916 photo, but no doubt the uniform experts will be along shortly...

[n252901]

Is there any reason why some are wearing puttees, and some aren't? Purely personal preference or would the ones that have them on, be just about to leave for action? One of the posters in the link you sent me mentioned lighter colour puttees for higher rank, i can't tell from the aged photo if they are different or not.

And what a wonderful picture website....i shall add that one to my list of sites to search.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Cheers

Jack

[Rob Bulloch]

Hi All,

The "Camerons" (is this just an old name for the Cameronians) just ahead of them near La Bassee to take a fence close to Rue d'Ouvert.

Jack this is a very common mix up Cameron's / Cameronians. Originaly (Forgotten in the mist of time, and also off topic) but to answer your question the Cameron Highlanders on there raising were designated the 79th Highland Regiment of Foot Cameronian Volunteers..This designation was changed to "Cameron Highlander" "Cameronian being a name applicable to a religeous sect of Presbyterian dissenters"

Quote from The Historical Records of the 79th Regiment 1863

My apologies for the off topic post... Aye Rob.

[greatbeanbags]

Barrie Duncan

Assistant Museums Officer

South Lanarkshire Council

Museum Development

4th Floor

Brandon Gate

Hamilton

ML3 0XB

Tel - 01698 453588

Barry is the man to help you research the Cameronians or Scottish Rifles in WW1 & aspects of their history. The Orkney Library is a good source of info - Exhibitions Officer called Tom Muir. These men might be able to identify the Scottish soldiers in your image.

Visit forum - www.themanchesters.org - you need to register a user name & password - go to the Home Page & find the Ladysmith Section & open the bottom folder called ' Queries on Soldiers from the Manchester Area' - There are 2 topics to see that might help you & there are lots of images & bits & bobs that might help you:

Capt. Stanley Cursiter - 2nd Scottish Rifles

Major William Imrie - 1st Bn. Frontier Force Rifles & D Com. 2nd Scottish Rifles

The 2 topics both relate to a 1st edition book called 'Twelve Days' by Sidney Rogerson an officer in the West Yorkshire Regiment. I bought this from Oxfam with original WW1 trench maps inside. This book actually belonged to the Major who fought in the 2nd Scottish Rifles at Le Transloy & Les Boeufs in France in late 1916. Barrie Duncan sent me the War Diary entries for Imries days in action as a young officer then. Cursiter did the illustrations in the book & he was friends & painted with Colonel Jack, also a Scottish Rifles soldier, commanding all the Regiments in this area. He was also 'Limmner' to the Queen & painted her receiving the honours (crown jewels) of Scotland.

Incidentally this book has now been returned to the Imrie family - the great grandson of Major Imrie!

Clive

[n252901]

Clive,

Many thanks for so many pointers.

cheers

Jack

[Piorun]

Lads from various units and in various stages of undress was sometimes symptomatic of a base hospital environment. Rank had nothing to do with the seating. Antony

[eltoro1960]

I would say they are all 'riflemen' as every one of them has blackened buttons. The lads with plain glengarry's look like they have the star of the Scottish Rifles thereon, impossible to tell with the others.

John