Identification of Scottish Regiment?

[irnbru1970]

Good afternoon all,

I volunteered to find out the regiments of one of my colleagues grandfather based on the photographs that she supplied to me, but I am having difficulty in determining them even with the records on Ancestry and National Archives of which there is less than 20 Peter Cairns.

His name was Peter Cairns born in Glasgow in December 1883 and married in 1916. Two of the photographs of him in the Scottish regiment appear to be from 1916 as his wife is present in them. It is said that he joined up early as there was no work to be found and it appears to be correct as I think he has on the pre-war uniform eg the pleats in the jacket, but I am definately no expert. Can anyone say from the images what ranks he achieved?

But post 1916 it appears that he has joined a new regiment - which I think could be the Royal Engineers? based on the shape of the cap badge and on the medal rolls there was a Peter Cairns who was in the Scottish Rifles then transferred over to the Royal Engineers - but I didnt think that his Scottish regiment photographs are the Scots Guards as stated in this particular record.

Can anyone advise? He also survived the war.

I hope to be able to contribute to this forum in the future and not to ask questions,

Many thanks

John

Peter Cairns 1916 ?

Peter Cairns 1916 ?

Peter Cairns, post 1916, Royal Engineers?

[roughdiamond]

First photo does look like Royal Engineers, but for the Scottish Rifles (Cameronians) connection, I'm almost certain they were never kilted and the Cameronians Glengarry did not have a chequered band.

As you know he married in 1916, what was on his marriage certificate for "Profession" and "Residence".

[Tom A McCluskey]

John,

Do you have a close-up of the left arm of the photo when your man is wearing the Tam O'Shanter, please?

Additionally, could you do a close-up of the left shoulder title of the one when your man is wearing the Glangarry?

At a glance he looks like 9th Royal Scots. The close-ups may help to confrim this.

Aye

Tom McC

[dundeesown]

Are you sure the lad in the third picture is the same man? and is it the right name to go with pics?And I`ll say not Scottish Rifles.

Gary.

[irnbru1970]

Many thanks for the very quick replies ! In answer to the above questions: my colleague is 99% sure that it is definately the same person - I also asked that too - as he looks different - but I think he just looks a little beefier around the face and happier!

On the wedding certificate of 1916 it states that he was a coppersmiths labourer.

I have posted close ups (not the best quality I am afraid) but may assist in identification. I did think perhaps the Tam O'Shanter cap was perhaps Argyll & Sutherland ? Probably way out...

I do appreciate you for taking the time out to look at these. I am hoping that I may be able to get much better scanned versions of them.

There are two Peter Cairns who appear in the records (Medal Roll Cards) and who both went from Scottish Rifles to Royal Engineers. I am confused as to why they have so many regimental numbers?

Corps Rank Regtl No.

Scottish Rifles Pte 9909

do 201386

R.E. 415906

do WR/176017

and the other card of another Peter Cairns:

Corps Rank Regtl No.

Scottish Rifles Pte. 25344

R.E. / 246281

-do- WR/282436

John

sorry i uploaded the wrong cuff !

[headgardener]

The Scottish Rifles weren't a kilted regiment. The bottom photo in the trio that you posted earlier was probably taken in about 1915 and may be the uniform of a regiment that he only served with in the UK and this may therefore not show up on his MIC (they generally only show regiments that a man served overseas with).

As for regimental numbers, a man would be issued with a new regimental number for each regiment that he served with. The man who you list above who has 2 numbers for his service with the Scottish Rifles; he was a Territorial serviceman, and in 1917 the system of numbering these men changed, hence the change in his number from a 4-figure to a 6-figure number (it's a little more complex than that, but they're the basic facts).

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi All,

I cannot see the man in the photo being Cameronians (Scottish Rifles).

- He is kilted

- He does not look like a piper

- He is not wearing a Scottish Rifles cap badge

- He is not wearing a Scottish Rifles shoulder title – short and blackened “SR", for regulars.

- He is not wearing Scottish Rifles buttons – blackened.

- He is not wearing a Scottish rifles cap. Would look black, but is rifle green with no dicing.

For the time being, my money is still on 9th (Highland) Battalion Royal Scots. He has the fold in his hose garters too, in accord with Royal Scots kilted troops.

Aye

Tom McC

[roughdiamond]

On the wedding certificate of 1916 it states that he was a coppersmiths labourer.

That would suggest at the time of his marriage he was a civilian, if he was a Soldier, that would be listed as his profession.

Another thing, is your friend certain the Woman in the 1st and 2nd photo is his Wife? in both photo's she's wearing a wedding ring, he's not, if it's his Wife both photo's are post marriage and as such 1916 onwards which Contradicts the belief "It is said that he joined up early as there was no work to be found".

Finally, the 3rd photo, I'm with the others and think it's not the same man, but possibly a Brother, I was thinking the badge maybe Royal Scots, the 9th Bn was kilted, is there an Edinburgh connection? that's where the Bn was raised.

[irnbru1970]

Many thanks all for your very prompt replies!

Peter Cains in all the photographs I have seen (including one from after the war) doesnt have a wedding ring on either - as I believe a lot of men at this period didnt, esp if working as a labourer? He was from Glasgow afterall ! (so am I !).

I thought on similar lines about the wedding ring and the belief about him joining up early as there was no work - but of course this could have been misinformation as he had close family who joined up at the same time.

It is definately doesnt appear to be one of his two brothers as they disappeared from records (or until the 1911 Scottish census is finally out) but of course I will keep this option open - though why would the wife of one brother pose in an affectionate way with the other? But there is a later photo of him with a work group in civilian life and it does look similar to his later soldier image.

So the consensus is that he is in the uniform of the Royal Scots 9th Battalion? What of the one with him (if it is!) sitting down - it isnt a Scottish regiment is it? and is likely to be Royal Engineers?

I really do appreciate the time taken to respond to this - and my colleague is especially grateful!

[roughdiamond]

though why would the wife of one brother pose in an affectionate way with the other?

You missunderstand John, myself and the others reckon the 3rd photo of the Man is the odd one out (that's the one I think maybe 9th Bn Royal Scots, but it's a shot on the dark).

The 1st photo with the woman which seems to be Royal Engineers and the 2nd photo with the same woman and possibly his sister going by the similar facial features are reckoned to be the same man.

As for the wedding ring, I brought it up because it positively dated the 2 photos with his wife as post Marriage (Have you positively ID her as his wife?).

Sam