essex regiment

[sarah0623]

Hi - I am researching Alfred Venn who died in France and Flanders on 13th December 1916. He is remembered at THIEPVAL MEMORIAL He was in the Essex regiment and his service number was 41108. I am interested in the war diaries for this period and wondered if anyone could help or direct me to where i can find information.

Thanks in advance, Sarah

[Jonathan Saunders]

You are looking for information on the 2nd Bn. SDGW states:

Name: Alfred Thomas Venn

Birth Place: Lambeth, Surrey

Residence: LambethDeath Date:13 Dec 1916

Death Location: France & Flanders

Enlistment Location: Wandsworth, Surrey

Rank: Private

Regiment: Essex Regiment

Battalion: 2nd Battalion

Number: 41118

Type of Casualty: Died

Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

Comments: Formerly 1695, London Regt.

It gives casualty as "Died", which I normally interprete as died from disease, accident, etc (but not always so).

Regards,

Jonathan S

[wainfleet]

But if he's commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial, then he has no known grave, so is likely to have been killed in action?

[sarah0623]

Hi - thats what I thought , i was wondering if the unit war diaries might shed light on what was happening around the 13th December. I know they don't mention individual soldiers. His service records don't seem to be on ancestry although his medal card is.

Sarah

[Jonathan Saunders]

But if he's commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial, then he has no known grave, so is likely to have been killed in action?

Not necessarily.

First of all Im not sure of the period of death that allowed for men to be commemorated on Thiepval, but obviously the 13 Dec is after the Somme and Ancre offensives had been clsoed down. Im not sure what activity happened in that sector after, say 16 Nov, but my guess would be not much as both sides reconsolidated their positions and battled the weather (I think it snowed around this time).

You cannot discount the possibiliy that he could have been kia by a shell or sniper, or dow, but equally if he had died through accident (or suddenly, through disease such as meningitis) then I fully expect he would have been buried in a Field cemetery close to where he died. The location record of his grave in the Field could have been lost, or the grave could have been destroyed when this same area was fought over in 1918.

The 2nd Bn War Diary should give clues as to how he could have died.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[owen4256]

Mon., Dec 11, 1916 FRANCE

Reserve Line. Gun boots and socks, 1 pair per man issued. Battn relieves 2nd DUKE of WELLINGTONS in front line. Relief commenced 5 p.m. not complete till 3.0 A.M. condition of ground and trenches appalling. 2 Officers and 77 men got stuck in mud during the relief (on top of ground). Line held as follows:- Front line 3 Coys. “B” right, “C” centre, “A” Left, “D” Support. “A” Coys relief completed by C.S.M. Flack (both Officer having got stuck) “B” Coy lost 2 platoon and 2 Lewis Guns during relief. the remains of these we collected next day from different parts of our line. Major Thompson rejoined Battn from leave during relief. BN Hd Qrs dug a narrow mine dug-out shaft.

Casualties to F.A. 1. O.R. 2/Lt Littman to F.A.

--- signed N.R. Thompson, Lieut-Col., Commanding 2nd Bn. The Essex Regiment

Tue., Dec 12, 1916 FRANCE

Front line trenches. Left of Battn on S. edge of SALLISEL. Weather very bad. Efforts concentrated on fighting the rain. No material available. Inter-communication impossible except at night.

Casualties 1 O.R. missing, 2 O.R. wounded.

--- signed N.R. Thompson, Lieut-Col., Commanding 2nd Bn. The Essex Regiment

Wed., Dec 13, 1916 FRANCE

Front line trenches as above. Casualties to F.A. 25 O.R. Killed 1 O.R. Missing 2/Lt H.W. Carter, 46 O.R.

--- signed N.R. Thompson, Lieut-Col., Commanding 2nd Bn. The Essex Regiment

Extracts from the War Diary for 12th and 13th December above.The Burrows history for the period concentrates on the foul weather, there is no mention of anything of note on the 13th but it does not that only 70 of the 77 men missing in the mud on the 11th eventually reported for duty.

Given that Soldiers Died has him as died rather than KIA there must be a chance that he drowned in the mud and his body was never recovered

Regards

Clive

[sarah0623]

Hi Clive,

thank you so much for the information -it's far more than i'd hoped to find.It's so sad to read but i'm glad we are able to know what happened to him

regards

sarah

[sarah0623]

Hi Clive - I've just heard from a relative who is also researching Alfred Venn - She has his death certificate and it says he was with the BEF and died from exposure which fits with what you thought.

Regards

sarah