In From the Cold Project

[roughdiamond]

Would I be right in saying that someone wounded in 1914 who subsequently dies in 1917, with cause of death cited as due to their wounds would class as a "Category 2" commemoration?

Would they be entitled to a CWGC headstone and to be listed on their site?

If they grave they are buried in has other family occupants and is unmarked, would the grave qualify for a CWGC headstone?

Thanks in advance

Sam

[headgardener]

I don't know what a category 2 commemoration is, but, yes, they would be entitled to a CWGC headstone and commemoration on the CWGC database. Many men died in this way, sometimes a few years after having been discharged on account of their wounds, injuries or illnesses. Plenty of men who were discharged with SWB's will turn up on the CWGC database for this reason.

Yes, a family grave would qualify for a CWGC headstone, although none of the other family members would be commemorated on the CWGC stone. It isn't, however, the automatic 'right' of the CWGC to place a stone on a family grave; the grave owner (usually the family, except in the case of a public - i.e. 'pauper's - grave) would have to give their permission. Most did, some didn't, for a variety of reasons. The grave would still be recorded on the CWGC cemetery register and the databas, even if it didn';t have a headstone (CWGC or otherwise).

[roughdiamond]

Cheers mate

This is where I got the "Category 2" from.

http://www.infromthecold.org/war_grave_criteria.asp

Sam

[headgardener]

Hi Sam,

Yes, I think I just unwittingly described a category 2 commemoration in the first para of my previous post. Lots of them in village churchyards up and down the country, many (I'm not sure of percentages) with headstones, some without, as per my explanation in para 2.

If I'm researching someone who was discharged with an SWB I always run them through the CWGC database and a reasonable number do come up, sometimes years after being discharged. I'm doing a village war memorial at the moment, and 2 of the men on it died after being discharged, both are in local cemeteries and both have CWGC headstones. One is a family grave, I understand, but there are no other markers on the grave. I have seen additional memorial markers at the foot of CWGC graves in local non-CWGC cemeteries which commemorate other family members buried in the same plot.

[Bardess]

Hi Sam

If you post his details it may be that your man has already been picked up and is going through as a non-com

[stevem49]

http://www.infromthecold.org/casualties.asp?from=search

Men found so far.

S

[roughdiamond]

Hi Sam

If you post his details it may be that your man has already been picked up and is going through as a non-com

Diane

Forum member "Northen Jack" started the thread below and has e-mailed on the records he has to me, on top of what he's posted in the thread I can tell you:

1036 Pte Laurence (Lawrence on his MIC) Allen joined 4th (Reserve) Bn Coldstrean Guards in 22/08/14, transfered to the 1st Bn in France on 08/12/14, was wounded on 22nd and casevac'd to the UK where he was transfered back to the 4th Bn on 31/12/14, he was discharged 09/08/15 but strangely there is no SWB reference on his MIC

He was a Boer War veteran 2nd Bn Coldstreams who enlisted in 1897 for 7 years and 5 reserve, he then did another 4 years reserve till 1913.

The circumstances of his death are in the link and as you can see Jack can find no headstone, also I can't find him on the CWGC site, you will see what pointers I've given Jack on the thread, maybe you can find something with a fresh eye.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=150649

Regards

Sam

[chrisharley9]

As this is a post discharge death you will have to obtain the death certificate yourself (if you have not done already). IFCP would be more than happy to submit the case for you with yourself as the finding volunteer.

Chris

[headgardener]

.....he was discharged 09/08/15 but strangely there is no SWB reference on his MIC

The SWB was only instituted in Sept '16 - over a year after he was discharged and just over a year before he died. I understand that it had to be applied for, unlike campaign medals which were issued automatically in the case of O/R's, so he may simply not have had the interest or energy to get round to applying for it. I've come across a few instances of men who were discharged on medical grounds but who didn't get SWB's; they've all been men who were discharged within the first year of the war.

It's also possible that an SWB was issued but that it's recorded on a different MIC to his campaign medals. Certainly happened a lot with some of the early issue SWB's. Worth having another check on various permutations of name, initials and regimental number.

[roughdiamond]

As this is a post discharge death you will have to obtain the death certificate yourself (if you have not done already). IFCP would be more than happy to submit the case for you with yourself as the finding volunteer.

Chris

Chris

This is from Jacks intial Post:

"I have his death certificate which states 4th battalion and his enlistment papers have a next of kin address that ties in with census information address. Date of death in both death certificate and Death of pensioner Memorandum is 10th September 1917, and cause of death as "gunshot wounds head + left arm sustained while on active service in France on 22 December 1914".

Jack has still to check the status of the Grave, if he does want to go ahead, should he contact IFCP through it's web site?

[chrisharley9]

If Jack wishes to take the IFCP route please do submit through the email address on the contacts page. Looks like a very good case; best of luck with it

Chris

[n252901]

Sorry for the cross posting guys, but good news is rare these days.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=75229537

Thanks for the support both on list and off list.

I emailed CWGC directly with an initial query and they seemed to be on the ball, and dealt with initial enquiry swiftly.

However it took a bit longer than they said to ok it, but the end result is the same.

Submitted Death Certificate, Cemetery burial entry, Service Records, newspaper clippings, Ross of Bladensburg quotes. Unsure if it was made longer/more complicated by the fact Regimental HQ had lost all the medals/documents/photos my late grandmother had sent them for safekeeping in the 1990s.

Redundancy means a bit more time of my hands, to explore this alleyway, especially for a photo of him, that is my next task!

Job done guys!

Jack

If Jack wishes to take the IFCP route please do submit through the email address on the contacts page. Looks like a very good case; best of luck with it

Chris

[Neil Mackenzie]

Well done Jack - good result.

The delay you experienced is almost certainly because it is not CWGC who have to agree whether or not someone should be commemorated but the MoD and that can take some time (inevitably they have other priorities).

Best wishes.

Neil

[John_Hartley]

Neil is right. IFCP has cases dating back several years that are still undecided by the MoD.

[MichaelBully]

Fascinating thread and good luck with all your research. Have wondered, is there some special office in the MOD who agrees commeorations? Or is such work just part of the overall MOD remit as it were? Has the MOD ever turned down an In From The Cold application ? Wishing you all success, Michael Bully

[John_Hartley]

is there some special office in the MOD who agrees commeorations?........Has the MOD ever turned down an In From The Cold application

Michael

Yes and yes.

Each of the major service branches has a system/staff for dealing with applications. For example, the Naval Historical Branch deals with sailors.

There have been occasional cases where an application has been correctly rejected. These have been when the MoD has established that a man is, in fact, commemorated under a name that had escaped our research. I believe that there have been a tiny number of cases where, say, a new member of staff has, in our view, misinterpreted the rules applying for commemoration.

[MichaelBully]

Many thanks for the information John. Yes I have encountered confusion over names in my own research, which has been fairly limited in many respects. I have lost track so to speak when a man changed forces , such as transfering to the Royal Flying Corps or British India Army.

Valuable work being done. Regards, Michael Bully

Michael

Yes and yes.

Each of the major service branches has a system/staff for dealing with applications. For example, the Naval Historical Branch deals with sailors.

There have been occasional cases where an application has been correctly rejected. These have been when the MoD has established that a man is, in fact, commemorated under a name that had escaped our research. I believe that there have been a tiny number of cases where, say, a new member of staff has, in our view, misinterpreted the rules applying for commemoration.