William Daniel Powell

[Cathy]

One of my ancestors William Daniel Powell never returned home after the Great War. He was a cpl in the Royal Engineers. Regt No 54409. He received the British and Victory

medals and they were returned in 1923. Would it be possible ot find our if he deserted? I believe he may have been a dispatch rider.

Hope you can help.

Cathy

[headgardener]

Is it the fact that he didn't return that makes you wonder whether he deserted? You say that his medals were 'returned'; where does this information come from?

If his medal index card says that they were returned then it almost certainly means that they couldn't be delivedred to him because either they didn't have an address for him, or that he was no longer at the address given on his service papers. It would also suggest that he wasn't a deserter. If he was 'on the run' then his medals would have been forfeited, and this information would be recorded on his MIC.

[SteveE]

MIC records that the pair were "Retd (992 KR 1923) 8426/adt"

Basically means that the medals couldn't be delivered and that after a period of one year, if unclaimed, they were returned to the Secretary, The War Office.

The medals were sent Registered Post, if they were undeliverable, i.e. repeated attempts at Delivery failed or if no notification of a change of address had been given by the Recipient to the War Office/Records Offices then they would have been returned to the Record Office concerned and after a period of ten years "Broken Up" (scrapped) if still unclaimed.

There is nothing on the MIC to suggest that he deserted.

Regards

Steve

[Cathy]

Thank you so much for the quick response.

I found the information regarding the return of his medals on the MIC. Does this mean that as far as his Military service goes - all is in order?

Looks as though I have come to another dead end.

Thanks again for taking the time to try to help me.

Cathy

[roughdiamond]

It would also suggest that he wasn't a deserter. If he was 'on the run' then his medals would have been forfeited, and this information would be recorded on his MIC.

Not necessarily so hadgardener, I only found out last week for certain as per a family story, that my Grandfather was listed as "Deserted" thanks to Verrico2009 (Louise), this was not on his MIC, but it was listed in the remarks column on the Medal Roll as the reason his medals were not delivered, they were claimed and delivered to him in 1926.

So Cathy, if you can make it to Kew, look him up on the Medal Roll, if not someone may do it for you if you go to the "Look up requests" section of the forum, you'll need to give them the medal roll reference from the medal card.

This is an example of the medal roll: - http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/medals.htm

This is how to interpret the MIC and where the medal roll reference is: - http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/mic.htm

[headgardener]

I only found out last week for certain as per a family story, that my Grandfather was listed as "Deserted" thanks to Verrico2009 (Louise), this was not on his MIC, but it was listed in the remarks column on the Medal Roll as the reason his medals were not delivered, they were claimed and delivered to him in 1926.

Hi Roughdiamond,

What information was recorded on the MIC?

Edit; I'm asking because, 1) I'm interested in what you say about this, and 2) because an MIC was generated for pretty much every O/R who was entitled to a campaign medal, and if it wasn't delivered for whatever reason (let's say they couldn't track him down, or his medals were forfeited) then there will be some indication as to why the medals were returned or retained. This would be in the form of a 'code' relating to the section of King's Regulations that covers the retention or confiscation of the man's medals. So even if it didn't necessarily state 'deserted' on his MIC, there should be some indication there as to why his medals were not delivered. The fact that he apparently claimed them several years after the vast majority had been automatically issued is likely to have been recorded in some way on the MIC. So I'd be interested to know what info is there (it would generally be in the 'notes' field).

I'd add that, in the case of Cathy's ancestor, SteveE has already looked at the MIC which clearly shows that the medals were sent out but returned undelivered (see post No. 3 on this thread). Which effictively rules out the likelihood of them being retained on the grounds of him being a deserter.

Further edit; the whole thing about your g'father rang a bell, and I found the thread that I think you're referring to (Patrick Daly?). The reference I was talking about is on the MIC (KR 363 xviii). I don't have a copy of KR's from 1921-ish, which would be the time that these records were being complied, but I'm pretty sure it's a reference to forfeiture of his medals for disciplinary reasons. You'll also notice that both the references to Kings Regulations are different to that on Cathy's MIC.

[Cathy]

Hello,

Thanks again for yours responses. I think that his wife may have returned the medals. It seems he left a wife and children and they never heard from him again.

I have sent for his childrens marriage certificates etc. and there is no mention of him being present Regarding hearsay, there is a mention that he may have run off with another women.

From what you say it looks as though he stayed in the Army until his discharge so he wasn`t a deserter. Is it possible to find his discharge papers?

Many thanks for your interest.

Cathy

[headgardener]

It's a very well recognized phenomenon for a cataclysmic event, such as a natural disaster, to be used by some individuals as an opportunity to walk away from their old lives. They use the breakdown of order following a disaster as a way of masking their escape from an unhappy or difficult situation. Obviously our lives now are very much more regulated and structured than back in the days of WW1 (no Social Security numbers, etc), so it was simply easier to do. The aftermath of a war would have provided many people with an opportunity to do so. I remember reading the memoir of a WW2 escaper who found himself on the run in occupied France in 1940, he came across a British man who had deserted during WW1 and had ended up in a French village where he settled down and married a local girl. By 1940 he had a family and was to all intents and purposes a Frenchman. He said that he had a wife and family back in the UK and had never gone back or been in touch. So I suspect that it wasn't exactly a unique event.

The book is called 'Freedom the spur', in case you''re interested.

As for discharge papers, you'll need to have a look on Ancestry.co.uk; they've got a list of digitized British army service papers from WW1. They're arranged in 2 'classes' so you'd need to have a wade through both. Bear in mind that the indexing is quite variable, and typo's occur frequently throughout. So it's best to search using variable spellings and combinations of his names, or use 'wildcard' spellings (substituting letters for 'wildcard' symbols which may help identify variable spellings).

[roughdiamond]

Further edit; the whole thing about your g'father rang a bell, and I found the thread that I think you're referring to (Patrick Daly?). The reference I was talking about is on the MIC (KR 363 xviii). I don't have a copy of KR's from 1921-ish, which would be the time that these records were being complied, but I'm pretty sure it's a reference to forfeiture of his medals for disciplinary reasons. You'll also notice that both the references to Kings Regulations are different to that on Cathy's MIC.

Your assumption is correct, I was refering to my Grandfather Patrick Daly, his MIC shows 2 reasons for return, KR 1743:

Kings Regulations (1912) para 1743 states:

"Medals which, at the end of 10 years, still remain unclaimed, will be sent to ... the deputy director of ordnance stores, Royal Dockyard (Medal Branch), Woolwich ... to be broken up."

And KR 363 xviii, I'd been told this was a bog standard "unclaimed/undelivered" code

You can see his MIC in the thread linked below:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=147904

[headgardener]

Hi Roughdiamond,

I know that this topic has been discussed by various people on this board; my understanding is that the regulation cited on Cathy's ancestor's card (KR 992 of 1923) relates to a failure in delivery of the medals. The KR reference on your man's card is 1743 (it may be that KR 1743 dated 1912 will be the same as that dated 1923, but I'm not certain that it is) records simply that the medals haven't been claimed/issued and will be broken up if they aren't issued after a particular period of time. The other KR reference on your man's card (363 xviii) should provide the reason why they haven't been issued - I'm not certain that this is just a bog-standard reference to them being undelivered or unclaimed, you'll see plenty of MIC's and medal rolls with KR 1743 mentioned without that supplementary KR being cited. Maybe someone with a copy of KR's dating from the early 1920's can look up these various references.

Sorry, I've just realised how boring this is likely to be for the average reader. Cathy, I'm sorry that I'm hijacking your thread.

[SteveE]

KR 363 xviii, I'd been told this was a bog standard "unclaimed/undelivered" code

I believe, and I don't have access to the King's Regs. in question, that this isn't anything to do with the medals but is the reason for his discharge from the army. Paragraph 363 of King's Regulations (not sure which year) replaced the (to us) more familiar Paragraph 392 of King's Regulations 1912 (and subsequent amendments) and dealt with the various causes of discharge from the British Army.

Regards

Steve