Telephone wires

[centurion]

Hi

I am not sure where you you received this information from, but it is incorrect. In what respect?

Worth noting that Fullerphones were produced by a number of manufacturers - it was not unusual for blocks of serial numbers to be allocated to different manufacturers. Two models were produced in WW1 (the Mk I and II) the Mk III was developed in WW1. The equipment was also produced in other countries. The Germans manufactured copies.

The Mk111 was produced during the war and post war, was converted to the Mk111*. Produced but not in general use until post war - the photo you produce clearly does not show the device in use anywhere near the front line

In WW2 the MKV replaces the MK111*

The Mk1 that was obselete by 1918.

British cable .

Regards JP

My sources include but are not confined to:

Royal Engineers Museum

The Museum of Technology

Communications and Electronics Branch Canadian Defence Forces

RAF Signals Museum

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

The field telephone in the Photograph is the D111 Field telephone not a Fullerphone Obvious to the eye.

I posted this for Comer.

One use of the D111 field telephone was by Linesmen, as it was light and easy to carry unlike the Fullerphones.

Some Mk111 Fuller phones must have been in use in the field of the thousands produced by W. D. S. F. alone

Regards JP

[nigelfe]

AFAIK neither GAT (Garrison Artillery Training) Gunnery nor FAT Gunnery are available on line. They are both very similar for much of their content. The last edition of GAT was before WW1 (so only 4.7, 60-pr and 6-inch were considered), but since they don't get into equipment details it doesn't matter. FAT editions continued until the 1930s but they were not published during WW1 (the first post war was 1921 (Provisional).

In WW1 it seems to have been unusual for a bty to deploy 2 OPs. The BC was responsible for tactical fire control, this meant his place in action was at his OP, but the OP role was soon rotated between most of the officers in a battery.

Single core cable remained in use throughout the war and in WW2, it was then called 'assault cable', which reveals its role. In WW1 it became normal to deep bury main cables - to 6 ft to make them '5.9 proof'. Line was used in btys pre-1914, but since all the assumptions were that war would be mobile other comms methods seem to have been preferred, eg helio and lights, these and other devices were used in WW1 when the terrain made it possible.

Heavy arty was highly dependent on aircraft & balloon observation because ground observers were seldom able to observe the ground of interest, ie where the German btys were. Radio from aircraft to btys was used from early 1915 (and had been used in training before WW1). Of course initially radios ware quite scarce so other ground air signalling was also used. Radio stations provided to btys would have been operated by the RE Signal Service.

[ianjonesncl]

In WW1 it seems to have been unusual for a bty to deploy 2 OPs. The BC was responsible for tactical fire control, this meant his place in action was at his OP, but the OP role was soon rotated between most of the officers in a battery.

Nigel

Looking at accounts from 135 Siege Bty and 94 Siege Battery it appears that on the majority of occasions more than one OP was established, though not necessarly manned. The observation officers moving to different OP's. In 1918, after RGA Brigades were formed, Brigade OP's are mentioned, and in that instance I couls see a battery being tasked to establish and man a single OP. Battery Commander 135 Battery took the view that a Battery OP would always established in addition to Brigade

OP's.

The actions at Nieuport detail that "We had many lines to most of these OP's (3 OP's) and did many shoots from them, often using cross observation with much sucess"

Ian

[marc coene]

Nigel

Looking at accounts from 135 Siege Bty and 94 Siege Battery it appears that on the majority of occasions more than one OP was established, though not necessarly manned. The observation officers moving to different OP's. In 1918, after RGA Brigades were formed, Brigade OP's are mentioned, and in that instance I couls see a battery being tasked to establish and man a single OP. Battery Commander 135 Battery took the view that a Battery OP would always established in addition to Brigade

OP's.

The actions at Nieuport detail that "We had many lines to most of these OP's (3 OP's) and did many shoots from them, often using cross observation with much sucess"

Ian

Nigel & Ian,

On our Farm there was the Battery Command Post and Officer's quarter combined (11 january - 14 April 1918). Before 117 Battery was on our Farm also with 9.2" guns.

The Battery was 154 Siege Battery under command of Major Rowan (we are still on the search of relatives of Major Rowan, who had 1 daughter).

Last year in October I organized a Remembrance,here on Manor Farm, for relatives of Members of the Battery. We had sons and daughters of Captain Walker (Irish), Gunner H.Graham (Scottish) and of Second Lieutenant Herbert Greene (Brtish). There was even a grandson coming over from US. Really were special Remembrance. The History of the Battery written by Captain helps also to learn about the Battery.

At the operation Post/Officer Quarter,here in a bunker at the Farm, there were always at least 2 Officers day and night. They seem often have played chess to let pass time.

For the first shoot (trial shoot) they worked together with Aircraft. There was contact with the plane and often (still in 1918) there were use the big ground letters to conversate with the plane.

Also rather near the farm (150 meter ) there was a deep dug out where it seems the members of the whole battery could get in (called Manor Farm dug out).

But about positions of the guns, there is nothing described, only they called they A , B, C& D guns but says not much as there are not maps indicating their postions.

I ordered several aerials at IWM but on none I could find back the gun barrel.

Kind regards,

Marc

[ianjonesncl]

Marc

This is from Haig's Artillery maps for October 1917 which shows the nearest 9.2" position near the farm. I believe it is some 250 yards away. One of the diagrams I have does have a Battery Command Post 250 yards from the gun position, so it may be a possibility.

[centurion]

In WW1 it became normal to deep bury main cables - to 6 ft to make them '5.9 proof'.

I think it might be more correct to say it became the regulation, sometimes honoured more in the breach than the observance as time and expediency (and lack of available man power) could result in less.

[nigelfe]

I don't think regulations had anything to do with it. I suspect that instructions for deep burial would have been perhaps a GHQ circular or note. My understanding is that cable trenches were extensively used for all main links, obviously this is when the front was static and I wouldn't expect it to reach the forward trenches, no doubt there were contruction priorities.

An 'OP' without observers in it is not an OP. Having a choice of positions is not the same as having multiple OPs. Actually OP positions with reasonable command of the ground seem to have been in short supply.

Air-ground radio was mostly (?) one-way not two-way, the a/c did the transmitting.

[centurion]

I don't think regulations had anything to do with it. I suspect that instructions for deep burial would have been perhaps a GHQ circular or note. My understanding is that cable trenches were extensively used for all main links, obviously this is when the front was static and I wouldn't expect it to reach the forward trenches, no doubt there were contruction priorities.

An 'OP' without observers in it is not an OP. Having a choice of positions is not the same as having multiple OPs. Actually OP positions with reasonable command of the ground seem to have been in short supply.

Air-ground radio was mostly (?) one-way not two-way, the a/c did the transmitting.

By 1918 (the period in question) 2 way was being used - a lighter weight aircraft set having been produced. This made spotting for more than one battery easier. I've seen a report somewhere where "regulation depth" is mentioned

[centurion]

Somee additional information on the Fullerphone

I am indebted to Louis Meulstee's "Wireless for the Warrior" for confirming the basic information I had. He has spent some 20 years researching, rebuilding and using all six models of the Fullerphone and also the Italian version. His information includes:

"by 1918 most divisions had adopted Fullerphones for all their forward communication circuits." so its more than likely that this would have been used in the site under discussion.

"Overhearing

A filter combination of chokes and condensers prevents any variation in the line current during a signal, and prevents any audible frequency currents produced either by induction from other lines or by a buzzer or telephone speech on the line from passing through the headphones. It also ensures that the rise and fall of line current is comparatively slow and thus prevents clicks being heard in the receiver of a telephone set superposed on the same line. Therefore, the Fullerphone cannot be overheard either by induction or earth leakage, and can only be tapped by a similar instrument directly connected to the line. It was found that with the use of very sensitive equipment (believed to be valve amplifiers) it is possible to overhear a Fullerphone when the listening earth is within 180ft of the Fullerphone earth."

In practice this means that the Fullerphone could only be heard if in-fortuitously located in the front trench directly opposite a Moritz station in the German front line trench. The Moritz stations (quite chunky and easily damaged items) could overhear the old field telegraphs from up to a mile distance and were usually located in dug outs.

"The Fullerphone Mk. III was developed in late World War 1. It was the standard model in the inter-war years, until being superseded by the Fullerphone Mk. IV."

The Mk IV and V were the WW2 models and the Mk VI the post WW2 version

[marc coene]

Marc

This is from Haig's Artillery maps for October 1917 which shows the nearest 9.2" position near the farm. I believe it is some 250 yards away. One of the diagrams I have does have a Battery Command Post 250 yards from the gun position, so it may be a possibility.

Hi Ianjonesci,

Interesting map you sent.Thanks.

This position of the gunsyou indicate will certainly be the ones of 117 Siege Battery (also 9.2"guns) who was positioned inthe village just before 154 Siege Battery was overhere.

154 Siege Battery was here from January till April 1918 and the lower positioned village was then a complete mud place. But indeed perhaps shell were transported over the street?

I'm so curious how the guns positions might have been that first months of 1918. Would there also exists maps about that time? I know it will then not anymore be the Haig maps.

Hereby a aerial of the period 154 Siege Battery Command Post and Officer's Quarter was at our Farm.it is to see that the village was extremely damaged.

In the book of Captain Walker of 154 Siege Battery there is to read that the Australian put railways till the guns to bring on the heavy shell of about 130 kg per piece.

On the aerial there is to see that the most left postioned gun (the one on your map near the cross of big road and smaller fieldway). is about still at the same place on the aerial I added.

Exiting to try to find out how it all has been but maps with the gun postions overhere beginning 1918 seems rare.

Remark just between the road and Manor Farm the small light railway that is a kind of by pass of the big railway still existing these days. There is clearly to see that this railway track is running just till about the .2" gun I just talked about.

Ianjonesci,still ideas about this? or ways to find more about the 1918 period?

Regards,

Marc

[auchonvillerssomme]

interesting site

http://wftw.nl/fullerphone/fullerphone.html

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

I own 2 Mk111 Fullerphones,One is Mid war 1918 the other late 1918 war dated on the paper instruction data plates.

They were more then developed they were produced.

I have course notes for two signalmen from about mid 1918 and both have detailed drawings of the MK111 Fuller Phone, showing it must have been in use.

The Mk111 was converted to the Mk111* Rf post war

Instructions for the MK111 Fullerphone State........... Note Speaking is only to Be resorted to when specially permited: it is not immune from overhearing in the same way as signals sent with the morse key Chap 1V Sec. 16 Signal Training.

Regards Jonathan

[ororkep]

Hello Marc,

You know that 154 SB took over the 9.2 Hows of 117 SB and its positions at Manor Farm. 117 SB is noted as having only 2 of 4 of its 9.2 hows remaining in action by Christmas Eve 1917, when a section of 264 SB were posted to them with another 2 Hows, meaning 154 inherited only 4 on 11.1.1918.

117 appear to have been there since at least mid Nov 1917 when they themselves had exchanged their own four guns for the 9.2's of 118 SB at the same location.

With regard to the map of Ian's dated Oct 1917 #31, another possible more likely 9.2 battery contender is 10 SB, who were positioned at Manor Farm from 23.9.1917 until 15.12.1917 during which time 8 of their personnel died on the farm.

So the probability that there may have been more than one 9.2 Bty on Manor Farm at any one time should be considered. I believe it was one of the largest farms in the area and any wire found, or indeed any artefacts, could have belonged to a number of batteries.

This thread has concentrated on only the 'high tech' communications so far. As 135 SB was mentioned previously, I thought the attached 'low tech' back up options for them as shown in Oct 1917 from group HQ to OP and batteries might also be of interest. Source: Australian archives.

Rgds Paul

[ianjonesncl]

With regard to the map of Ian's dated Oct 1917 #31, another possible more likely 9.2 battery contender is 10 SB, who were positioned at Manor Farm from 23.9.1917 until 15.12.1917 during which time 8 of their personnel died on the farm.

Paul

The maps for October 1917 were the closest date Io April 1918, I could find. My own thoughts were that the position would be possibly still be there in the April, being handed on from unit to unit, until 154 Siege Battery took it over. Looking at the planning maps, aerial photographs and the obvious state of the ground following 3rd Ypres, the positions for the deployment of heavy artillery and the routes available for the movement of ammunition would be limited.

Ian

[marc coene]

Hello Marc,

You know that 154 SB took over the 9.2 Hows of 117 SB and its positions at Manor Farm. 117 SB is noted as having only 2 of 4 of its 9.2 hows remaining in action by Christmas Eve 1917, when a section of 264 SB were posted to them with another 2 Hows, meaning 154 inherited only 4 on 11.1.1918.

117 appear to have been there since at least mid Nov 1917 when they themselves had exchanged their own four guns for the 9.2's of 118 SB at the same location.

With regard to the map of Ian's dated Oct 1917 #31, another possible more likely 9.2 battery contender is 10 SB, who were positioned at Manor Farm from 23.9.1917 until 15.12.1917 during which time 8 of their personnel died on the farm.

So the probability that there may have been more than one 9.2 Bty on Manor Farm at any one time should be considered. I believe it was one of the largest farms in the area and any wire found, or indeed any artefacts, could have belonged to a number of batteries.

This thread has concentrated on only the 'high tech' communications so far. As 135 SB was mentioned previously, I thought the attached 'low tech' back up options for them as shown in Oct 1917 from group HQ to OP and batteries might also be of interest. Source: Australian archives.

Rgds Paul

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the info. This is again new info. When I have time I will look in the Cemetries here nearby if I can retrace of that 8 man.You have names of them?

It seems a lot of Batteries will have been at Manor Farm. Still a lot to find out, but little by little.

Regards,

Marc

[green_acorn]

Hello,

Where we live there was a Battery command and Officer's Quarter of 154 Siege Battery,RGA.

We often found pieces of wire.

I wonder why there are so much types of wire. From one wire going till about 16 small wires.

Were they all used for phone lines. Why have some so much little wires and others not (to be more flexible?).

Where there always needed two wires to make connection or were there also wire with already integrated the 2 wires?

On the photo also several type of wire found overhere.

Regards,

Marc

Marc,

Getting back to your original question about the telephone cable, the wire at the top of your photo will be made of a single copper strand, great for conductivity and fine for laying in a permanent telephone pipe in a services trench back in England, but not for battlefield use. The lower two cables will consist of multiple strands of copper wires with steel wires. If you can get all of the wire in one cable together and then lightly drag your finger over the tip the copper wires will bend away from the steel ones. The steel wires were included to give the cable strength when being pulled and laid, copper being more pliable will stretch and break, it also, hopefully, reduced the number of breaks caused by shellfire and soldiers, horses or equipment. The common telephone line used in the 70's to 90's often called D-10/"Don Ten" consisted of three copper wires with seven (?) steel wires.

Cheers,

Hendo

[centurion]

The steel wires were included to give the cable strength when being pulled and laid, copper being more pliable will stretch and break, it also, hopefully, reduced the number of breaks caused by shellfire and soldiers, horses or equipment. The common telephone line used in the 70's to 90's often called D-10/"Don Ten" consisted of three copper wires with seven (?) steel wires.

Also includes an element of 'belt and braces'. If you have a single wire a break is a break and with a single wire (whether copper or steel) this can happen with the 'wrong' kind of bending. With a multi wire, multi metal cable there is a a fair chance that connectivity will be maintained even if one or more strands fracture

[marc coene]

Marc,

Getting back to your original question about the telephone cable, the wire at the top of your photo will be made of a single copper strand, great for conductivity and fine for laying in a permanent telephone pipe in a services trench back in England, but not for battlefield use. The lower two cables will consist of multiple strands of copper wires with steel wires. If you can get all of the wire in one cable together and then lightly drag your finger over the tip the copper wires will bend away from the steel ones. The steel wires were included to give the cable strength when being pulled and laid, copper being more pliable will stretch and break, it also, hopefully, reduced the number of breaks caused by shellfire and soldiers, horses or equipment. The common telephone line used in the 70's to 90's often called D-10/"Don Ten" consisted of three copper wires with seven (?) steel wires.

Cheers,

Hendo

Hi Hendo,

Thanks for the info.

Ps The single cupper strand was in each case found overhere. It will have been used but for what reason, I don't know.

Regards,

Marc