Artillerymen wore bandoliers -

[ianjonesncl]

As far as the RFA and RHA are concerned the following extracts may be of interest;

Field Artillery Training Manual 1914 Chapter VII Employment of Artillery in War section 148 - Protection.

Para 1. " On the march, artillery, owing to its inability to defend its self, requires protection which is provided by other arms"

Para 2. " On the field of battle artillery will generally be protected by the distribution of other arms. When, however guns are in an exposed position, an escort should be detailed.."

" In moving from one part of the battlefield to another artillery commanders must consider, if no escort has been provided, whether one is necessary or whether to avoid delay they should rely on their own patrols"

I think it would be sensible that these patrols be armed, so they would have some of those rifles, either on a temporary or permanent basis. Para 3 talks about the provision of Artillery Patrols to supplement other arms in escort duties.

Para 4. Once in action artillery should be able to protect its own front, provided there is no ground within effective rifle range"

Para 5. " Rifles are carried on artillery wagons, except in horse artillery. In action these rifles should, if considered necessary, be distributed to the gunners with the wagon lines, who should assist the escort, if one has been provided in protecting these vehicles. This precaution is especially desirable in the case of artillery in action on the exposed flank of a force, where hostile cavalry may be operating".

Chapter IX Battery Tactics - Change of Position section 229 details the actions for what would be now termed an "emergency withdrawal" - the process being as Squirell and John have outlined. Essentially bring the gun limbers forward, unload a few rounds to cover the withdrawal if none were on the platform, engage enemy, withdraw by sections covering each other, VC's for the last remaining teams.

I believe the concept was the guns would defend themselves with fire until it was necessary to withdraw, and at that point all the men and drivers would be involved with the firing, and limbering of guns and therefore not in a position to engage with rifles.(certainly having practiced this a few times everyone is focused on the gunnery tasks). This is very much the phase of the Retreat to the Marne and the saving of the guns at Le Cateau. As the Western Front formed I think the concept of "On the field of battle artillery will generally be protected by the distribution of other arms" would have been very much the gunners approach, you did have at least a Division of infantry in front of you as well as a fortified line.

My own thoughts are the rifles were held centrally in the wagon lines and distributed as required.

[Muerrisch]

my knowledge of artillery ENDS c. 1900, but surely there was a case- or cannister-shot round available? What about the NW frontier, where mountain guns most certainly could protect themselves and each other against knife-wielding worthy oriental gentlemen?

[johnreed]

I maintain that the rifles held or rather stowed on the Carriage limber and Ammunition limber remain on the Gun position it is pointless in having all the riles in the Wagon Lines, which perhaps could half a mile away.

John

[Tyrim]

Excellent information! Thank you all.

green_acorn- Good point about the comfort factor. That would also be a good reason to have 5 rather than the 10 pouches of other units, leaving the man's back clear so he could ride on the limber. I've seen photos of batteries where the men are dressed as though they were field hands in white shirts and no hat, rather than what you'd expect of artillerymen but it was the most practical thing to wear, getting the job done rather than standing on ceremony.

squirrel, johnreed and GRUMPY- In most circumstances where there is sufficient warning the battery should be well able to use the big guns to repel attacks assuming visibility is good. At night or when caught unawares they would have to manage the best they could with a few rifles until help arrived.

ianjonesci- Thank you for the extract from the Artillery Training manual. Clearly, every unit has a purpose so it's logical not to have small arms available to everyone in the battery. That way there's no distraction from their duty to fire or move the guns as circumstances require. In spite of ordinary discipline, if someone is shooting at you there's a strong desire to pick up a rifle and return fire rather than continuing to do what you're supposed to do.

Edit- johnreed, you posted while I was typing the above. I agree, there had to be some provision for the rifles and ammunition in the battery position.

[Ron Clifton]

... That would also be a good reason to have 5 rather than the 10 pouches of other units, leaving the man's back clear so he could ride on the limber.

Tyrim

In fact, all mounted units other than cavalry wore the 50-round bandolier, with five pouches across the chest. The cavalry version actually had nine pockets rather than ten: four across the back, which when mounted would not obstruct the man's movements.

Ron

[Andrew Upton]

musketry courses were indeed prescribed for all RA, but not for RAMC.

The 1909 (amended to 1914) Musketry Regulations, Section 87A., paragraph 434A., page 159, pertaining to soldiers of the RAMC and AVC, state:

434A. Recruits of the R.A.M.C. and A.V.C. will fire practices I to IV, table B (Royal Artillery, &c.), Appendix II. The following standard will be required:-

Practice 1. All shots in a 12-inch ring. Those who fail to attain this standard will repeat Practise 1 until they do so, or expend the full allowance of ammunition. Ammunition not required for the above practices is to be expended on preliminary training on the 30 yards range as considered necessary.

Trained soldiers of the R.A.M.C. and A.V.C. quartered in South Africa will fire Table B (Royal Artillery, etc.), Appendix II.

Pretty certain you sent me that!

[Rockdoc]

Having two rifles per limber would seem to support your assumption, Ron, that they were for use by the drivers.

Ammunition limbers were kept close to the guns so the rifles would be readily available to protect the men trying to fire, remove or disable the gun if the enemy attacked the position. When the guns were in prepared positions, ammunition limbers were not used as the primary source, as might be expected. The majority of the allocation was placed, still boxed, in storage-pits and this was used to supply the gun. The ammunition in the limber was used to supplement this supply to cover any shortfall and maintain the required rate of fire.

Keith

[Tyrim]

Andrew Upton, Thank you for posting the Regulations. What does it say was the range for firing on the 12 inch ring? Not 30 yards, I presume. Could you show more of what the distances were and what scores were necessary to qualify?

Rockdoc, With the rifles hanging on the limbers there had to be someone assigned to provide protection. Would this have been the drivers? If so, that would solve the problem of availability of ammunition when it was needed, presuming they wore their bandoleers. But what about when the limbers were off getting more ammunition? What protection would be available then?

It's clear that members of the battery didn't wear bandoleers most of the time so where would these have been kept. And why would everyone have ammo with so few weapons available. Everything was so well thought out there must have been a logical procedure for dealing with this as well.

[Rockdoc]

Ammunition was brought to the position in wagons so the limbers would not have been removed from the gun-position. The limbers would have been re-stocked after every engagement but, as I wrote earlier, the primary source of ammunition to the gun was from storage-pits. A limber couldn't hope to keep a gun going for long. An 18-pdr could comfortably fire about six rounds per minute so its stock would be gone quite quickly if that was the only resource. AA guns could have a couple of hundred rounds in their pits so I don't see why field guns would be much different. In the preparation for the Battle of the Somme, my Grandfather's battery was firing up to 1200 rounds a day for a week, for example.

Keith

[ianjonesncl]

Ammunition limbers were kept close to the guns so the rifles would be readily available to protect the men trying to fire, remove or disable the gun if the enemy attacked the position. When the guns were in prepared positions, ammunition limbers were not used as the primary source, as might be expected. The majority of the allocation was placed, still boxed, in storage-pits and this was used to supply the gun. The ammunition in the limber was used to supplement this supply to cover any shortfall and maintain the required rate of fire.

Keith

Do you think it is the case that most of the positions post 1914 were prepared positions and the incidence of the deployment of limbers was probably not that great. ? In most cases for 18 pounder batteries gun limbers would be back in the wagon lines and ammunition limbers would be often on the move collecting / delivering ammunition.

[Andrew Upton]

Andrew Upton, Thank you for posting the Regulations. What does it say was the range for firing on the 12 inch ring? Not 30 yards, I presume. Could you show more of what the distances were and what scores were necessary to qualify?

I literally only have the one page illustrated I'm afraid - I only have that as it is part of a mountain of evidence that backs up the fact that Commonwealth medical personnel were allowed to carry arms during WW1 if necessary, and indeed the British Army expected them to be able to shoot accurately when they did!

[Rockdoc]

After 1914 and before the Hundred Days I would say that the vast majority of guns would have been in prepared positions. They were used to attack zones of ground as allocated by the CRA at Divisional HQ. It's true that some were moved to attack particular targets during a battle but they seem to have been the exception.

The limber had to be quite close to the gun or the gun couldn't be removed in an emergency. I'd say that it would have to be simpler to attach the gun to the limber at the position and bring a horse-team to it than bring the limber, have to align it and then attach the gun.

Keith

[ianjonesncl]

FOR SALE

[ianjonesncl]

Found a newsrell which shows RFA with rifles.A couple of screen shots from this video (around 1:04 to 1:12)

Territorial Brigade on the move

In this case the rifle is slung over one of the drivers shoulders

And here it looks like one of the gunners on the limber has a rifle slung over the shoulder

[Tyrim]

I'm continually amazed at the amount of information members of the Forum can bring to a discussion.

Thank you!!!

[Muerrisch]

The 1909 (amended to 1914) Musketry Regulations, Section 87A., paragraph 434A., page 159, pertaining to soldiers of the RAMC and AVC, state:

“434A. Recruits of the R.A.M.C. and A.V.C. will fire practices I to IV, table B (Royal Artillery, &c.), Appendix II. The following standard will be required:-

Practice 1. – All shots in a 12-inch ring. Those who fail to attain this standard will repeat Practise 1 until they do so, or expend the full allowance of ammunition. Ammunition not required for the above practices is to be expended on preliminary training on the 30 yards range as considered necessary.

Trained soldiers of the R.A.M.C. and A.V.C. quartered in South Africa will fire Table B (Royal Artillery, etc.), Appendix II.”

Pretty certain you sent me that!

Shucks! Yes, I was a bit worried when I couldn't find the ref. and thought I had dreamed it. The Regs. are not brilliantly indexed.

No fool like an old fool!

[squirrel]

FWIW. The field guns and crews of the RHA and RFA pre war were trained and prepared to fight in support of and close up to the cavalry or infantry. Think of the retreat from Mons and Le Cateau for instance and the encounter battles before the trench lines were established.

It would therefore seem to be reasonable for them to carry a number of rifles and the ammunition for same for use in circumstances where they may have had to advance, manouvre or withdraw in the presence of enemy infantry or cavalry.

The Guns would, of course, as is the tradition of the Royal Artillery, be kept in action for as long as possible.

It soon became clear as the front settled down that as the artillery was now behind the trench lines held by the Infantry and at times the Cavalry, that being within range of enemy infantry was increasingly less likely to happen. Even when guns were deployed in or near the front line, usually in support of an attack, for instance at Loos, they would have expected to have been protected by the infantry.

The only time that I can think of that the rifles may possibly have been used by the gun team or gun detachment after the end of 1914 would have been during the German Spring attacks of 1918 and possibly, but perhaps less likely, during the advances of the 100 days.

[nigelfe]

Individually issued small arms for all did not exist in RA until 1942. Until then small arms were part of gun stores and some bty HQ staff. However, shared weapons meant that everybody needed to carry a bit of ammo so that they could grab a weapon and use it if necessary (and forget all that zeroing stuff!).

[pjjobson]

The rifles and indeed the two Lewis Guns assigned in the later years for what would now be classed as "close defence" were certainly put to good use by 5 Bty RFA during the 1918 German offensive when most of the Bty were wiped out defending the guns. The French awarded the Battery the Croix de Guerre for the action. The ribbon ius still worn on headgear today by members of the Battery.

Phil

[Tyrim]

squirrel, nigelfe and Op-Ack

Excellent!

Once again a very logical solution. Centralize weapons so they're not in the way and it simplifies caring for them, yet they're close enough for use when needed. As you say, nigelfe, no need to zero in when that's also the range. No sublety, just put up an old fashioned gunfight until help arrives.

tyrim

[nigelfe]

What seems to have really triggered the change to individual weapons for RA was Crete. Unarmed men fighting German paras was not a happy event.

[Ron Clifton]

The limber had to be quite close to the gun or the gun couldn't be removed in an emergency. I'd say that it would have to be simpler to attach the gun to the limber at the position and bring a horse-team to it than bring the limber, have to align it and then attach the gun.

Keith

I'm not sure that this is correct. It would be much quicker to leave the horse-team attached to the limber and hook the gun onto the limber, than to connect up a horse-team to a limber already attached to the gun. The reports of the rescue of a gun of 37 (How) Batt RFA at le Cateau, for which Capt Reynolds and Drivers Drain and Lke wone VCs, imply that this was the way it was done.

Based on a recent conversation with an artillery buff when visiting the Somme, it seems more likely that ammo at the gun position would be in the wagon body, and the gun and wagon limbers would have been withdrawn with the teams. The ammo could stay in the wagon until required, rather than having to be unloaded at the gun position and piled awaiting use.

Ron

[johnreed]

The Carriage(Gun) Limber which when unhooked from the Carriage(Gun) is then placed to the left of the Carriage(Gun)and slighlty to the rear. What everybody is forgetting that on the Carriage Limber is 24 rounds PLUS Oils and lubricants and two trays containing spares which are most necessary for the functioning of the Gun.For this reason the Carriage Limber would not be removed from the Gun position, but the ammunition from the Ammunition from the Ammunition Limber and Ammunition wagon would be ground dumped behind the Gun and any necessary stores.

John