Harry Hancock c990 - Kings Royal Rifles

[simonshute]

Hi everyone, first post so hopefully it comes across ok.

I am researching the time my Grandad, Harry Hancock spent in the Army during the First World War.

Harry was from Leicester and I am fortunate in that Pop, as he was affectionately known, after being wounded and taken prisoner survived the war and therefore I have some information already. Unfortunately I'm not being very successful in interpreting the information I have. I am hoping that the experts on this forum can help to fill in the gaps and resolve a couple of questions I have. In my younger years I did get some stories of Grandad's time in the war but these were mainly of a jovial nature and the horror of the war was never shared. Like so many others I guess. I'm now at an age where I want to know more with the ultimate objective of a 'Pop Hancock road trip' following in his footsteps from the UK to France, Germany and back. In particular I'd like to know where he was wounded and captured.

The information I have has been put together from a number of sources including his army pay book, letter reporting him missing, letter following repatriation, German identity card.

What I have so far:

Harry Hancock joined the Kings Royal Rifle Corps on 19^th October 1914 as Riflemen c990. The front page of his pay book seems to indicate that he joined the 8^th Battalion although this is not entirely clear. There are also a couple of stamped references on the vaccinations page which read 8 Coy, 6 KRRC. At some point he was made a Lance Corporal, as Rifleman is crossed out and Lcpl written in.

At the bottom of the page giving pay rates the book is dated 19^th December 1916 and stamped SHEERNESS.

The first pay entry is 'in the field' and dated 2^nd January 1917. The last pay entry is 'in the field' and dated 17^th May 1917. There are 9 entries between these dates roughly 2 to 3 weeks apart seeming to indicate that Harry was continuously 'in the field' from January to May 1917.

The entries in the pay book have been signed by a number of officers, the names I can read are F Church, W Howat, A S King all look to be 2^nd Lieutenants.

The Will page is completed and dated 1st January 1917.

The page confirming equipment issued is dated 19^th December 1916 and stamped SHEERNESS.

The letter from the Regimental Paymaster at Winchester stating that Harry was missing is dated 16^th June 1917.

From personal accounts the story goes that Harry was wounded and lay in a shell hole through the night before being taken prisoner in the morning. As a POW he was put to work on a local farm presumably in the area indicated on the ID card. I have made a request to the Red Cross to see if there is any further information available about his time as a POW.

The German Identity card states that Harry was a prisoner at Schwulper in the Gifhorn District of Germany. The card has a signature and date of 17^th June 1918 which is slightly confusing as it's a year after the time I assume he was captured. Maybe a replacement card or when he went to work on a local farm?

I have been unable to find his service record, presumably it's one of those that didn't survive. I would like to try and trace where Harry was during the war years from when he enlisted through to his repatriation at the end of the war. A tall order I know but you have to set the bar high to begin with! I think tracing his whereabouts is made more difficult because I'm not sure which Battalion he was in, the pay book indicates it may have been the 8^th but he attended the reunion for the 16^th every year at Denham in Bucks. Could he have moved between Battalions? I have a copy of his medal records which shows he was awarded the 14-15 star which I think means he was in France before the end of 1915 (a qualifying date of 16^th November 1915 is shown).

Any assistance would be much appreciated, I could probably post scans of the documents if this would help.

I will be away for the first couple of weeks of August but will respond to any information before or after my holiday.

[MBrockway]

A big hello Follow Pop and a warm welcome to the Rifles Family here on the Forum!

Harry's KRRC Service Number of C/990 would suggest he had been allocated to 16th Battalion (Church Lads Brigade) which fits well with his attending the 16/KRRC reunions at Denham.

16/KRRC left Southampton for France late on 16th November 1915, having trained together as a unit at various locations in England ... but never in Sheerness.

If you look at his Medal Index Card however, you'll see his Date of Entry into Theatre (i.e. arrival in France) is 16 Nov 1915 and he was also entitled to the 1914-15 Star.

In other words, Harry was at the Front much earlier than you realised and I'm 95% sure he went out with 16/KRRC. No other KRRC btn went out on those dates.

Do you have Harry's medals?

It then looks like he was repatriated back to Blighty, probably due to wounds or sickness, was most likely hospitalised, and then passed through to 6th Battalion, once he was fit enough, where he would have recuperated back to fighting fitness before being posted back out to France at the turn of the year 1916/1917.

6th Battalion was one of the KRRC's Reserve battalions training new recruits and recovering wounded. It was based at Queensborough close to Sheerness. 5th Battalion, the other main KRRC Reserrve battalion was in Sheerness itself. I suspect the Paybook entry actually reads "B Coy, 6 KRRC".

There are some good posts on both these battalions if you do a Forum search - I'll add the links to this thread next week when I have more time.

I'm still looking into his most likely battalion when he went back to the Front for his second stint.. 16/KRRC would be the most logical, and indeed 2/Lt W. Howat served with 16/KRRC and is reported as wounded during the fighting near Croisilles to capture the Hindenburg Line in late May 1917. A 2/Lt King (no initials found yet) commanded 'D' Coy at this action. Howatt (sic) is also mentioned as leading a party from 'D' Coy to ferry extra Lewis Gun ammo to 1/Queens who were involved nearby.

This strongly suggests Harry was in 'D' Company.

Against that though is the fact that 16/KRRC were resting well behind the lines between 02 and 24 June 1917 when Harry seems to be reported Missing. It's possible that date is when the paperwork was completed rather than the date he actually disappeared, and indeed 53 ORs were listed as Missing in the same action at Croisilles I've just mentioned. Harry could well have been amongst them.

I'm still looking into 2/Lt F. Church. In the 1917 appendix of Officer Casualties he's listed as being wounded on 21 Apr 1917, but his battalion is not given and I'm still tracing him. This will have to wait though as I have to stop as I'm being collected to go to Snowdonia momently!!

If you look up Harry's entry in the British War & Victory Medal Roll (Ref M/101^B/5 page 560) this will show you all the battalions in which he served.

Lots of stuff to get you going anyway!

More when I've more time.

Cheers,

Mark

[simonshute]

Hi Mark,

WOW didn't expect so much so soon, many thanks for your reply a pleasure to be part of the Rifles Family.

I think everything you have written seems to fit. The letter reporting Harry missing is dated 16th June there isn't a reference to the day he actually went missing, so this could well have been before 2nd June. The last paybook entry was 17th May so it seems he may have gone missing between these dates.

The signatures in the paybook would support your timings.

02/01/17 - F Church

10/01/17 - H Holloway ??

19/01/17 - W (William?) Howat

13/02/17 - W Howat

10/03/17 - A S King

15/03/17 - H Holloway ??

26/03/17 - W Howat

16/04/17 - Milland / Mulland ??

28/04/17 - W Howat

08/05/17 - W Howat

17/05/17 - A S King

I've requested the medal roll information. Harry's son, my Uncle has Harry's medals so I will check these out when I'm back from hols.

The really interesting stuff is that Harry went out to France twice. As a kid he used to show me the peices of shrapnel in his leg and also the scars where he was shot through the thigh. The thigh injury would have been quite serious, no idea what the recovery time would be. I'd always assumed, and was told I think, that this was the injury he received at the time of his capture. The shrapnel may have been from the injury that sent him home previously. It would good to get some more detail around this.

I'll look up some information on the 5th and 6th Battalions.

Thanks again Mark for your help. Hope you had a good trip to the mountains.

Cheers,

Simon

A big hello Follow Pop and a warm welcome to the Rifles Family here on the Forum!

Harry's KRRC Service Number of C/990 would suggest he had been allocated to 16th Battalion (Church Lads Brigade) which fits well with his attending the 16/KRRC reunions at Denham.

16/KRRC left Southampton for France late on 16th November 1915, having trained together as a unit at various locations in England ... but never in Sheerness.

If you look at his Medal Index Card however, you'll see his Date of Entry into Theatre (i.e. arrival in France) is 16 Nov 1915 and he was also entitled to the 1914-15 Star.

In other words, Harry was at the Front much earlier than you realised and I'm 95% sure he went out with 16/KRRC. No other KRRC btn went out on those dates.

Do you have Harry's medals?

It then looks like he was repatriated back to Blighty, probably due to wounds or sickness, was most likely hospitalised, and then passed through to 6th Battalion, once he was fit enough, where he would have recuperated back to fighting fitness before being posted back out to France at the turn of the year 1916/1917.

6th Battalion was one of the KRRC's Reserve battalions training new recruits and recovering wounded. It was based at Queensborough close to Sheerness. 5th Battalion, the other main KRRC Reserrve battalion was in Sheerness itself. I suspect the Paybook entry actually reads "B Coy, 6 KRRC".

There are some good posts on both these battalions if you do a Forum search - I'll add the links to this thread next week when I have more time.

I'm still looking into his most likely battalion when he went back to the Front for his second stint.. 16/KRRC would be the most logical, and indeed 2/Lt W. Howat served with 16/KRRC and is reported as wounded during the fighting near Croisilles to capture the Hindenburg Line in late May 1917. A 2/Lt King (no initials found yet) commanded 'D' Coy at this action. Howatt (sic) is also mentioned as leading a party from 'D' Coy to ferry extra Lewis Gun ammo to 1/Queens who were involved nearby.

This strongly suggests Harry was in 'D' Company.

Against that though is the fact that 16/KRRC were resting well behind the lines between 02 and 24 June 1917 when Harry seems to be reported Missing. It's possible that date is when the paperwork was completed rather than the date he actually disappeared, and indeed 53 ORs were listed as Missing in the same action at Croisilles I've just mentioned. Harry could well have been amongst them.

I'm still looking into 2/Lt F. Church. In the 1917 appendix of Officer Casualties he's listed as being wounded on 21 Apr 1917, but his battalion is not given and I'm still tracing him. This will have to wait though as I have to stop as I'm being collected to go to Snowdonia momently!!

If you look up Harry's entry in the British War & Victory Medal Roll (Ref M/101^B/5 page 560) this will show you all the battalions in which he served.

Lots of stuff to get you going anyway!

More when I've more time.

Cheers,

Mark

[conijoni]

I can confirm that Hancock was with D Company. It is likely that he was a member of the Church Lads Brigade in Leicester. Can you say where he lived when he was a teenager and which church he attended? Johnny Conn

[simonshute]

Harry lived in Aylestone Park in Leicester and we think attended the Church Lads Brigade at St James Church, Aylestone Park, Leicester.

Many thanks,

Simon

[conijoni]

This was Company Number 2135, enrolled in November 1902. From 1912 it was a recognised Cadet company and was part of the 1st Peterborough Cadet Battalion CLB. Nowadays it would be the Leicester Diocese, but there was no Leicester Diocese then.

[MBrockway]

Simon,

Some clarification about 'D' Coy's commander ...

'D' Coy's commander had been Captain J.R. Smith, but he was killed attacking the Hindenburg Suppport line in the second wave of the attacks near Croisilles on 20 May 1917.

'A' and 'D' coys, who attacked together were repulsed and were left with only one officer between them.

This was presumably 2/Lt King who is later described in the War Diary as in command.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Simon,

You need to read this Topic: 16th Batt Kings Royal Rifle Corps 23rd April 1917 2nd Battle of the Scarpe ,Croisilles

It also covers the action in May and has photos and maps which will be very interesting to you.

Cheers,

Mark

[simonshute]

Many Thanks both for your help.

Mark, the information via the link you posted is excellent. As you say it looks pretty odds on that this is where Harry was wounded and captured. Do you know if this action is the last for 16/KRRC before they came out of the line on the 2nd June?

I spoke to my mother about your 'wounded twice' thoery and she produced a birthday card sent to Harry by his sister in August 1916! Harry was in the London War Hospital at Epsom at the time. Do you know if there are any patient records for the war time hospitals? Mum, also recollects Harry considering himself lucky to have missed the Somme as he was wounded just before it started.

Were 16/KRRC in action in May/June 1916?

Many thanks again for the information I can't believe how much more I kno in just a couple of days.

Cheers,

Simon

[Audax]

Simon & Mark,

The information below is from http://www.rushdenheritage.co.uk/war/memorial%20men/sayerL1916.html

The story of Private Leonard Sayer Rifleman C/1376 Kings Royal Rifle Corps Son of John & Annie Kate Sayer sheds a lot more light on what happened to Harry Hancock C990.

Leonard Sayer died Aged 21 years on 2nd July 1916 and is commemorated Cabaret-Rouge British Cemetery, Souchez

Grave XXI. D.3.

He was born and enlisted at Rushden, Northants

The Rushden Echo Friday 14 July 1916, transcribed by Nicky Bates

Rushden Soldier Missing - Rifleman Leonard Sayer - The Great Offensive - News Wanted

Mr and Mrs J Sayer, of 63, Harborough-road, Rushden, have we regret to say, received some disconcerting news regarding they son, Rifleman L Sayer, of the King's Royal Rifles, who is officially reported as missing since July 2nd.

The first news was received through the medium of Mrs Hinde, Orchard-place, Rushden, whose husband, Drummer B Hinde, wrote:-

"I dare say you remember me writing and telling you about Leonard Sayer, who lives up the Harborough-road. I am grieved to tell you that he has been missing for several days, and I think he must be dead. I feel so grieved for his parents, as he was a good living lad."

Mrs Hinde considerately lost no time in conveying the information to Mrs Sayer, who shortly afterwards received a letter from Gunner Cyril Wills (Rushden), of the Machine Gun Section, K.R.R.'s confirming the news. Gunner Wills wrote that Leonard was missing, and that his papers had been entrusted to his (Gunner Wills's) care. Gunner Wills added the information that he was on sentry duty and shook hands with him as he (Rifleman Sayer) was going out with a raiding party.

Official confirmation that Rifleman Sayer is missing was received yesterday morning.

In his last letter home, written to his parents dated July 1st, the day of the opening of the great offensive, the missing solder wrote:-

"This last time has made my feet rather sore, as we have been up to our knees in mud and water. It rained nearly every day, so it was miserable. This time has been rather warm for us as we had some mines blown up on our company's front. We had a few casualties as well, poor fellows.

"I had two near goes, but, thank God, I have come through safe and sound. Another fellow and myself were on duty together in a sap-head when we had mines blown up close to us. We got plenty of sandbags and earth drop round us, and we could hardly get out, but managed it after a struggle. The top of was blown in both times, so we had the job of rebuilding it. We had a lively time all the tune we were in, and I was glad and thankful when we were relived, I can tell you. Some of our fellows have suffered from shell shock, and to see all the poor lads, I don't wonder at it now. The weather was lovely, I wished it had been like it all the week. The trenches do get in a state after a little rain. I can only say I have been a very lucky lad, but perhaps it is providence. I can tell you it makes us realize how near we are, and that we need to prepare our souls by prayer to meet our Maker.

"I guess you felt proud when the Rector spoke about our battalion. I know you would like to think that you have a son in it. Give my love to all at home. I am proud of you all. I saw a good air fight last night. God bless you both."

Rifleman Sayer, prior to taking up his military duties, worked for Messrs Sudborough Bros., boot manufacturers, Higham Ferrers. He enlisted at the age of 20, at the beginning of September last year; he went to the front in March, and entered the trenches for the first time in June. Right up to the time of his enlistment he was a member of St Mary's Church choir, Rushden, and for some years he was associated with St Mary's C.L.B., in which he held the rank of Sergt Bugler. He was also a teacher in St Mary's Sunday School, and took a keen and active interest in church work. He celebrated his 21st birthday on Dec. 19th last year.

Much sympathy is felt with Mr and Mrs Sayer in their uncertainty of mind, and they would be grateful to any of Rifleman Sayer's comrades who can send them any further information concerning their son. Communications should be addressed to them at 63, Harborough-road, Rushden, Northants.

The Rushden Echo Friday 3 November 1916, transcribed by Nicky Bates

Rushden Soldier Missing - Distressing Reports Regarding Pte J Sayer

Mr John Sayer, of 63, Harborough-road, has received the following letter from the British Red Cross, regarding his son, Pte J Sayer, 1376, KRRC, previously reported missing:-

"Dear Sir, we have made enquires for your son, but did he have the initial "J". Had he another name besides Leonard? A report has been given by Rifleman Harry Hancock, 990, 16th KRRC, County of London War Hospital, Epsom (home address 113 Lothair-road, Leicester) who states:-

On July 2nd, 1916, at Quinchy, at about 1 a.m. as I was lying wounded in a shell hole, I saw Sayer passing me, limping. I asked him if he was hit and Sayer told me he was wounded in the leg. I suggested that he should stop there, but Sayer limped off, and I heard nothing more of him.

The second report is given by Rifleman H Potter, 222, 16th KRRC, Hemingford Street Hospital, Birkenhead (home address 25, Devonshire-street, Leicester), who states:-

On July 2nd, 1916, at Quinchy, we went on a bombing raid about midnight. About 40 men and two officers went, but only about 11 returned. I saw Sayer wounded in both legs, and he said he was afraid that he would not be able to get back.

If these reports relate to your son I wish to express my sincere sympathy with you in receiving such distressing reports.

Yours faithfully for the Earl of Lucan, J J Freeman, Oct 17/16.

Before his enlistment Pte Sayer worked for Mr Sudborough boot manufacturer, Higham Ferrers.

[simonshute]

Audax,

Many, many thanks for this peice of information. Incredible that you made the link to my post.

I found it quite emotional reading the story and particularly the thought of Grandad lying in the shell hole that night, brings it all to life.

Thanks again, what a forum this is!

Regards,

Simon.