Identifying an Unknown Soldier 1918

[Leofwine]

I am trying to narrow down the identification of a soldier I have a photograph of. I know he is Royal Artillery, the date and his first name, but no more. I was wondering if there was anything in the detail of the uniform that might point to a rank or branch of the RA? I know this is a long shot, but hopefully someone here might be able to help.

On the back of the photo is a hand written inscription: "Norman and Gussie January 1918" The photo comes from a family collection I acquired (not my own family, so I have no-one to ask for recollections). I looked at the online military records in the National Archives and have discovered about 40 'Normans' serving in the RA during WWI. Hopefully if I can identify his branch and or rank it will help me narrow it down further. The family name was Barr, but I could find no Norman Barr in the records, so I think the family link is from the lady in the picture (still unidentified, but I'm working on it). The Barr family seem to have been mainly in Deal, Kent, or Chatham, Kent at the outbreak of the war, but as soldiers moved around a lot I don't know if this helps.

Here is the picture:

(Larger scan here if needed: My link)

From some of the asking around I've done so far I seem to have: He's NOT an officer (but possibly could be an NCO), and he may have been RFC (transferred from RA) or a member of the Royal Horse Artillery or Royal Field Artillery.

Getting rid of officers has narrowed my list of 'Norman's in the RA to this (I'm still working through RFC):

Name Corps: Regiment No: Rank:

Adam, Norman L Machine Gun Corps 2262 Acting Serjeant...

Carlisle, Norman P Machine Gun Corps 1901 Gunner...

Wallace, Norman G Machine Gun Corps 2032 Acting Corporal...

Mellor, Norman Machine Gun Corps 1990 Gunner...

Ashdown, George Norman Motor Machine Gun Service Royal Artillery 156 Private...

Birks, Norman Arthur Motor Machine Gun Service Royal Artillery Private...

Duffin, Norman Royal Army Service Corps attached Reserve Battery Anti-Aircraft Royal Artillery M2/049518 Private

Henry, Norman Royal Artillery 865 Serjeant...

Chadwick, Norman William Royal Artillery 147971 Gunner...

Kirkman, Norman Royal Artillery 711434 Gunner...

Garvey, Norman Royal Artillery 21322 Gunner

Smith, Walter Norman Royal Artillery 1407507 Serjeant

Redman, Norman Royal Artillery 47157 Gunner

Pratt, Norman Royal Artillery 46125 Corporal

Lucas, Norman Royal Artillery 46375 Gunner

Lunn, Norman Royal Artillery 28050 Driver...

Marsden, Norman H Royal Artillery 216573 Gunner...

Morrison, Norman Royal Artillery 1033214 Serjeant

Edmundson, Norman Royal Field Artillery 1378 Driver...

Lee, Alfred Norman Royal Garrison Artillery 63014 Gunner...

Woodward, Norman H T Royal Garrison Artillery 34887 Serjeant...

Wilson, Norman Royal Garrison Artillery 31128 Serjeant...

Am I right in thinking the bandolier probably rules out the Garrison Artillery and Machine Gun Corps?

If anyone has any information that could help I would appreciate it greatly.

[janecavell]

I'll have to leave the uniform analysis for the experts, but here are a couple of thoughts:

• Does it definitely say "Gussie"? That seems an unusual name for a woman, though I suppose she could be Augusta? Alternatively perhaps "Norman" could be "Norma", which would make Gussie the man's name?
  
• My other thought was that the two of them look very alike, so I'm wondering if they might be brother and sister.
  

P.S. In case no-one else has already said so, welcome to the forum!

[Leofwine]

I'll have to leave the uniform analysis for the experts, but here are a couple of thoughts:

• Does it definitely say "Gussie"? That seems an unusual name for a woman, though I suppose she could be Augusta? Alternatively perhaps "Norman" could be "Norma", which would make Gussie the man's name?
• My other thought was that the two of them look very alike, so I'm wondering if they might be brother and sister.

P.S. In case no-one else has already said so, welcome to the forum!

Thanks for the welcome

I'm pretty sure it is Norman and Gussie, but to be sure here is the back of the card:

Larger versions here

From what I've been investigating Gussie seems to be an abbreviation for Augusta, Augustine and Gertrude. Sadly I can't find any of those names in the Barr family so far. This one is frustrating me because seeing the date you really hope he managed to make it through! (I know the odds are against him, but you never know...)

I'm trying to see if I can find any members outside the main line of the family whose names match - cousin's etc, but this is slow going. Checking the archives I couldn't find any likely RA members named Barr.

[headgardener]

You're not right about the bandolier, i'm afraid. And there's no reason to suppose that he'd been in the RFC, from what I can see.

Your man is wearing the cap badge of one of the 3 branches of the Royal Artillery (RFA, RGA, RHA), or of the Honourable Artillery Company (Artillery), (but not the HAC (Infantry) ).

You said that there were about 40 'Norman's serving in the RA in WW1, and I understand that you arrived at this figure by analysing the MIC's. Unfortunately the MIC's almost exclusively record the names of men who served overseas in WW1. So the best that you can say is that 40 'Norman's served overseas with the RA. But, even then, we're not taking into account all the MIC's that only show the man's initials. So what I'm trying to say in a very long-winded way, is that you're unlikely to get anywhere with the MIC's; there's just too many possibilities. He's wearing a shoulder-title, but it's too indistinct.

I doubt that you'll crack this one without some more info coming to light.

But if you're up for it, then the best suggestion is to try to find a marriage between a 'Norman' and an 'Augusta' (or any other name that 'Gussie' might be a diminutive of). Or go through the list of 'Norman's and 'N's who served in any of the units that I listed above, and try to find an 'Augusta' (or whoever) with a matching name.

Or trawl through the service records for the men that come up on the MIC's, see if next of kin are listed. Or look for a Norman Barr.

You can narrow down the list of possible 'Norman's by going through the list and cross-checking it against the CWGC database. Anyone who died before Jan 1918 is excluded, then check those who died after Jan 1918 to see if they had a wife called 'Gussie' or check the census for family members called Gussie. Etc, etc, etc.

Edit; I don't know where you came by your figure for 'Norman's in the RA, but I just did a search and came up with over 1,890.

[Leofwine]

Thanks for that, looks like the search just got bigger again!

I haven'y checked them against the CWGC records yet, but that's a good idea as it may list next of kin if he was killed.

Marriage records are being a nightmare looking for Augustas or Gertrudes (another name Gussie is diminutive for) and Norman. It may even be that they were just 'sweethearts' rather than married (much like Robert and Nancy in the excellent Fromelles program on Monday).

I got the figure of 40 from searching for all Normans serving in the RA in 1918 at the National Archives website, but as you said this is only from the MICs.

I did search for a Norman Barr in the RA 1918 but got no results on that one.

The RFC suggestion was from someone who said that his coat didn't look right for RA, but did look similar to one worn by the RFC, and noted that RFC transferred from other regiments often kept their original cap badges.

I'm relying on what others more knowledgeable than me know about WWI uniforms, it's later than the period I know well (go 200-250 years earlier and I'm in with a shot, by 20th century and my limit is Khaki - Commonwealth, Blue - French, Grey - German! (and yes I know there are probably a million exceptions/contradictions to those colours!) That's why I'm asking here. If I don't know something I try to ask where people do know so this forum seemed the perfect place to ask!!

[headgardener]

I did search for a Norman Barr in the RA 1918 but got no results on that one.

The RFC suggestion was from someone who said that his coat didn't look right for RA, but did look similar to one worn by the RFC, and noted that RFC transferred from other regiments often kept their original cap badges

'Royal Artillery' isn't the right search term; when you're searching the MIC's you need to put 'Artillery' in the dialog box and all the various branches will come up (RFA/RGA/RHA, and HAC (A) ), hence me finding over 1,890 of them.

So maybe you need to amend your search for Norman Barr. I looked on TNA for that name, and came up with only 2, one of which had been in the navy, had transferred to the army and joined the RGA, though his MIC shows him as an officer. THIS is the link to his MIC. It's possible that he served in the ranks if the RGA but didn't serve overseas until he was promoted to 2/Lt. You'll ned to look at his service papers to see if it's your man.

As for your man's tunic, your friend has seen RFC tunics which button up in a similar style, but that isn't an RFC tunic (trust me on this). And RFC men who had transferred from other regiments didn't keep their original cap badges, they used an RFC cap badge.

[Leofwine]

After much research and a lucky find tucked behind another document in a box of family photos I have managed to identify these two. They are not a couple of sweethearts as I had at first assumed, but brother and sister, the children of Alfred and Laura Busby. They are the cousins of Mabel Busby, the nurse who married Alexander Barr (both mentioned in another thread I posted).

Although the hand written inscription on the back says "Norman and Gussie January 1918", from Norman's service record it appears the only time he spent in England after his posting to France was 9th to 23rd December 1917, so this photo was presumably taken then.

Augusta was born in about Mar 1890 in Oxfordshire, and in June 1909 she married Alexander Thomas Foster. They had at least 1 child, Ruby, born in 1910.

Norman was one of the many who died in World War 1. At the time he joined up Norman and their mother Laura were living with Augusta and her husband and child at 90 Walton St., Oxford. Norman's war record shows that their father, Albert, went to South Africa 1902 and had not been heard from since. In the 1911 census Laura is shown as a widow.

Gunner Norman George BUSBY

156th Howitzer Bty. Royal Garrison Artillery

Born 1895 at Coombe, Oxford.

Age:23

Died: 8th October 1918

Service No: 297313

Son of Alfred and Laura Busby, of 90 Walton St., Oxford.

Grave/Memorial Reference: I. G. 25.

Cemetery: ZANTVOORDE BRITISH CEMETERY

British Army Service Records WWI

Attestation: Norman George Busby, Royal Garrison Artillery, service no 9056. (Changed to 297313 on 4/4/17)

Address: 90 Walton St., Oxford.

Age: 20 years 6 months.

Trade or calling: Farmer.

Married: No.

Ever served in forces previously: No.

Date 2 November 1915.

Medical history taken at Oxford 2 November 1915:

Height 5ft 11¾in; chest fully expanded 37 in; range of expansion 2½ in: 143 lb: Physical development good: No vaccination marks

Next of kin Laura Busby (Mother) of 90 Walton St., Oxford.

Particulars as to marriage: None

Children: None

Royal Garrison Artillery, attested Gunner 2 November 1915; 156th (Oxfordshire) Heavy Bty. R.G.A. 2 November 1915; posted overseas 19 June 1916 156th (Oxfordshire) Heavy Bty. R.G.A. Killed in Action 8 October 1918. Buried in isolated grave, Right of road between Wervicq and ten Brielen 2½ miles North West of Wervicg and 4¼ miles E.S.E. of Ypres.

Body exhumed and re-buried at Zantvoorde Military Cemetery 4½ miles South East of Ypres 1-9-25

Total service towards engagement to 8 October 1918 (date of discharge) - 2 years 341 days.

Medals British War and Victory Medals.

I do wonder if there is any way to find out about the action that killed him - gunshot, air attack, enemy artillery, etc?

[KennethB]

Leofwine,

See if you can find the war diaries for his unit. War diaries don't often mention soldiers by name, but depending on the writer sometimes you get a very detailed account. I was researching the 20th Inf. Batt. CEF and found it not only to contain names but good details of actions that the battalion was involved with. At the very least it should give you the unit location the day that he died. With a little research you can find out if there was a general attack going on or not. The location of the cemetery will also help locate the general location he died in. Check the forum, there is a very through list of unit war diaries. It may take some reading but it very helpful and well worth the time spent reading through them.

Cheers,

Ken