rha uniform dating

[lengooby]

can anyone help me by giving a date to this photo?

the lanyard suggests that it is pre 1914..according to what i have read elswhere

i'm also unsure as to the service stripes on his left arm,they seem to be larger than others i have seen.

his bandolier i have been told was also not in issue in 1914.

we know he served in the great war, but was recorded as a civilian in 1911 aged 26.so leaves the possibility of re-enlistment

the background gives me the idea of it being taken in india.

many thanks in advance

(i'm an old ex sailor...blue was our colour )

[CT-Guards]

Good conduct stripe on the left forearm - 1 stripe for two years service

[4thGordons]

can anyone help me by giving a date to this photo?

the lanyard suggests that it is pre 1914..according to what i have read elswhere

i'm also unsure as to the service stripes on his left arm,they seem to be larger than others i have seen.

his bandolier i have been told was also not in issue in 1914.

we know he served in the great war, but was recorded as a civilian in 1911 aged 26.so leaves the possibility of re-enlistment

the background gives me the idea of it being taken in india.

many thanks in advance

(i'm an old ex sailor...blue was our colour )

Lanyards were almost ubiquitous on active service 14-18, and the bandolier is from 1903 pattern equipment that was used throughout the war especially by troops with mounted roles (like RHA - he also has spurs on!) - they continued to be manufactured into the 1940s.

He is wearing standard 1902 service dress - not Khaki Drill (lightweight) - so although he may be India (I don't see anything strongly suggesting that on the card) I would have thought a temperate climate more likely - backgrounds were fairly generic -- what is the BACK of the card like (what language is it in/how is it set up/does it have a photographers mark/stamp?)

It really looks to me as thought it could have been taken any time between about 1910 and the mid 1920s... but has the feel of a 14-18 wartime picture to me.

Chris

[lengooby]

Good conduct stripe on the left forearm - 1 stripe for two years service

is it me or is there 3 stripes? which means 6 years

as a matter of interest we sailors had to do 4 years per stripe

[CT-Guards]

is it me or is there 3 stripes? which means 6 years

as a matter of interest we sailors had to do 4 years per stripe

I wanted to say three but I can also see folds on the sleeve which made my eyes go a bit squiffy.

[Grovetown]

is it me or is there 3 stripes? which means 6 years

Can't say whether three or not, but GC stripes were not per two years of Good Conduct. Don't have it to hand, but think its two, five and 12. If Grumpy drops in (he doesn't like the new format), he's good for chapter and verse on these.

Cheers,

GT.

[lengooby]

Lanyards were almost ubiquitous on active service 14-18, and the bandolier is from 1903 pattern equipment that was used throughout the war especially by troops with mounted roles (like RHA - he also has spurs on!) - they continued to be manufactured into the 1940s.

He is wearing standard 1902 service dress - not Khaki Drill (lightweight) - so although he may be India (I don't see anything strongly suggesting that on the card) I would have thought a temperate climate more likely - backgrounds were fairly generic -- what is the BACK of the card like (what language is it in/how is it set up/does it have a photographers mark/stamp?)

It really looks to me as thought it could have been taken any time between about 1910 and the mid 1920s... but has the feel of a 14-18 wartime picture to me.

Chris

chris,

the original photo has been stuck on a wooden plaque since 1916 , so looking for markings will not be possible,

fortunatly ,i know there is another copy somewhere, as he sent 2 photos home..i will track it down and post reverse on site for your expert eye

thanks

[lengooby]

I wanted to say three but I can also see folds on the sleeve which made my eyes go a bit squiffy.

i'll see if i can get a better close up from my computer nurd friend...

[4thGordons]

the original photo has been stuck on a wooden plaque since 1916

Well that should help narrow the date a bit then

1911-1916? Doesn't look like enough time for too many good conduct chevrons.

Is it possible he was a pre war Territorial? (so would still be listed as a civilian on the census.

Chris

[lengooby]

Well that should help narrow the date a bit then

1911-1916? Doesn't look like enough time for too many good conduct chevrons.

Is it possible he was a pre war Territorial? (so would still be listed as a civilian on the census.

Chris

chris,

did the territorials at that time keep records?

len

[4thGordons]

chris,

did the territorials at that time keep records?

len

Yes certainly. The question is whether they 1) survive and 2) are accessible.

A good number of the surviving records available on Ancestry have TF enlistment forms. The same is true with the "pension record"(sic) files.

The battalion I am interested in published battalion orders every year and although I only have a couple of them they are very detailed listing all recruits, resignations, transfers, time expired men as well as qualifications, dates of camps and recruitment drives etc.

Chris

[lengooby]

i'll see if i can get a better close up from my computer nurd friend...

trying to think with a bit of logic here..not easy its my first time!

close up of gcb ..the best i could do i'm afraid, but even my old wobbly eyes can make out three (i think )

which means, if he was 26 on the 1911 cencus,he would have been around 30 when this was taken in 1915/16

3 stripes equals 12 years, which means he joined around 1903 aged about 18...

also on his daughters birth certificate in 1915, his occupation was entered as gunner rfa, and in brackets carman, which was his civilian occupation.

looking more like territorial sent to war,and not regular troop.

if this is the case, finding his brigade could be easier i hope

if you know which rfa territorials joined what brigades, it would make my life easier..

i do know his brigade went to gallipoli and entered 19-6-1915

and another thing blah blah...there appears to be a medal ribbon on his chest in original photo, surely too early in 1915 to be wearing one..must be from previous campaign?

[headgardener]

looking more like territorial sent to war,and not regular troop.

The GC stripes make him almost certainly a regular rather than a territorial.

2 questions;

Are you certain that the photo dates from 1916 or earlier (is there a date on the plaque)?

Can your computer nerd friend do an enlargement of the medal ribbon? I'd say it's 2 ribbons, so that' could be Boer war (looks a bit like a QSA/KSA when I enlarged the pic myself), or possibly WW1 campaign medals which would date the picture at slightly later than 1916.

[lengooby]

The GC stripes make him almost certainly a regular rather than a territorial.

2 questions;

Are you certain that the photo dates from 1916 or earlier (is there a date on the plaque)?

Can your computer nerd friend do an enlargement of the medal ribbon? I'd say it's 2 ribbons, so that' could be Boer war (looks a bit like a QSA/KSA when I enlarged the pic myself), or possibly WW1 campaign medals which would date the picture at slightly later than 1916.

definately taken during 1915/16

we know he went to gallipoli in june 1915 and then on to mesopotamia

his medal card records him as deserting in feb 1916, and the the charge being changed to absence and medals restored.

that is the last anyone heard from him, there are no war graves ref, or other records..probably destroyed in ww2 raid.

it is said that his mother lit a candle in the window for 30 years to guide him home.

we have no records of his artillery brigade or unit..with which we could possibly search artillery regiment records

i was quite hoping that by finding out he was a territorial, it could narrow the search for the brigade he was in.

i have attached a close up of the medal ribbon, and it does look like 2..also with a metal badge attached?

i will attach a copy of his medal card to next post

regards

len

[lengooby]

could he have had his time served in the tf counted towards his gcb in the regulars?..i ask as we had an ex RAF who was allowed to wear three stripes when he joined the navy with me as a recruit

attached medal card

[headgardener]

Thanks for the medal enlargement, but it's still a bit small, you couldn't make it a bit bigger (without it becoming too pixelated) could you? Certainly looks like a KSA and QSA (Queen's South Africa and King's South Africa) campaign medal ribbons, which tells us that he served in South Africa during the Boer War.

I didn't realise that you had his service details; his army number confirms that he was a regular. No indication of him serving in the TF (and that probably wouldn't make it any easier for you to track his service, in any case).I'm pretty sure that three GC stripes would be for 12 years service, so if he had joined the army at some time no later than 1899, 12 years would take us up to somewhere between 1911 and 1916 (when he deserted). Chances are that he enlisted prior to 1899, left the army sometime before WW1 but remained on the Army Reserve, and was recalled in August 1914. Alternatively he may not have been on the Reserve (or completed his time with them before WW1) and re-enlisted in Aug 14.

The medal card says that he deserted in Feb '16. The '15 star roll was compiled in about early 1918, so for the star to be forfeited at that time, plus the words "still a deserter", would suggest that he was still on the run. The fact that the star was restored suggests that he served his time, or was pardoned, and served once again in the ranks before the end of the war.

You may be able to find his battery or brigade by checking the 15 star roll, it may be arranged by unit, though I simply can't remember. Otherwise you want to see if there are any disciplinary records that survive. Desertion (particularly over a long period of time) would be punishable by, I think, General Courts Martial.

You can also try to find his name on the QSA and KSA medal rolls. They'll list the unit that he served with in SA, and might include some other details such as whether he was wounded, taken prisoner, etc, and tell you which battles or campaigns he fought in (if any).