Can somebody please I.D. this WW1 Uniform

[Researcher11]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post on this great website & I am hoping somebody can tell me more about this soldier. I need to know what battalion he was in & hoped somebody would be able to I.D. his uniform.

On the back of this photo is the soldier's name "Jack Freeman" & the date - 1916. If this soldier is Jack Freeman, his name was actually "Isaac Freeman" & he was born in 1900 in Liverpool. So, a bit young at 16 to be in WW1, or was he ?

Really appreciate an opinion on this,

Thank you.

Researcher11

[dundeesown]

I`ll have first go at it,how about Army Service Corps.?

Jack Freeman T4-240170 Driver Jack Freeman & 453335 11th London Regiment.

all the best Gary.

Edit.Welcome to the Forum.

[headgardener]

I think that ASC is very plausible, the badge looks like a star of some kind, but it's so indistinct that you may have trouble positively ID'ing it. Far better for you to find his regiment through either a medal index card or his service papers. What we can say is that it looks like he was a horseman (looks like he's wearing jodhpurs) which would fit with the ASC. But there are about 10 Jack Freeman's in the MIC's (no Isaac Freeman's, though). Did he have any other names? The MIC's only list those men who served overseas, so you'd need to be certain that he did.

16 was technically too young for him to serve in the army, but there were plenty of lads his age who squeezed past the recruiting sergeants.

[Researcher11]

Hi again,

Many thanks to you both, for the welcome & the information.

Could the 'Star" be anything to do with a Jewish regiment ? (If there was such a thing) As my father's family were Jewish.

Amongst my father's many brothers, there were 3 brothers who are not accounted for - as far as war service. All my father's brothers served in WW1 or WW2, some served in both. This photo has the name of Jack Freeman written on the back. But his name was Isaac, born Isaac FRIEDMAN in 1900 in Liverpool. The family name of Friedman has been seen as either Friedman - Freedman & has now evolved into Freeman. My father's family were Jewish & name changing is commonplace. So, Jack's name could be...

Jack or Isaac FREEMAN - FRIEDMAN or FREEDMAN

But, Jewish research is very complicated & there is always the possibility that the soldier named as "Jack Freeman" in this photo, could not be the person the family think he is. There is a possibility that this soldier could be either of another 2 brothers. Either Elias or Eli Freeman or another brother - Abraham Freeman.

Elias was born in 1898 in Liverpool, while Abraham, who was a half-brother was born about 1898 in Russia. Elias died in 1921 aged 22 years, while Abraham is a complete mystery to the family. Abraham appeared for the first time on the 1911 Liverpool census & has not been seen since. We wondered if he had been killed in WW1, but it might be that Abraham went by another name that we don't know of :-(

My mother's family were Catholic & I'm just learning about my Jewish roots. Name changing to Anglicise the name, to "fit in" & for obvious reasons during both wars, was commonplace, as I've said, so tracing Jewish family is very difficult.

So, this photo could be one of 3.

1). Jack or Isaac FREEMAN - FRIEDMAN or FREEDMAN born Liverpool 1900

2). Elias or Eli FREEMAN - FRIEDMAN or FREEDMAN born Liverpool 1898

3). Abraham FREEMAN - FRIEDMAN or FREEDMAN born Russia about 1898. Abraham has probably also changed his name, but don't have a clue what he could have changed it to!

So, I guess I need to look at any Jewish soldier with the name Freeman or Friedman or Freedman who was from Liverpool.

I know that Isaac/Jack died in March 1940 of MS, so he didn't serve in WW2. I also know that Elias/Eli died in 1921 of Kidney Failure, so he didn't serve in WW2 either. But Abraham has disappeared after being listed on the 1911 census. So, I'm suspicious that the information on the back of this photo, might not be accurate & could have been any one of these 3 brothers. Sadly, we don't have any other photos to compare with.

Any suggestions or advice will be appreciated... thank you

Researcher11

[27thBN]

He is also wearing a medal ribbon BWM ? i can see only one

MC

[Researcher11]

He is also wearing a medal ribbon BWM ? i can see only one

MC

If he was wearing a medal, then this implies that he has already been to war... at 16 ? Is this possible ? Or, is it more likely that this young soldier is one of Jack's elder brothers Elias or Abraham ? Both born 1898, so about 18 in 1916.

Researcher 11

[headgardener]

I agree with MC that it looks like he's wearing a medal ribbon, but the photo is so indistinct that it's hard to be certain. It does look like 1 ribbon, but the angle of his body or the position of his bandolier could be hiding a 2nd ribbon. It could be an 'imperial service' badge instead, in which case he would be serving with a Territorial Force unit and would have been serving with them since late 1914 or possibly early 1915.

But if it is a medal ribbon (or ribbons), the the most likely explanation is that it would be campaign medal(s), in which case the date on the back of the photo (1916) must be wrong. The main 2 campaign medal ribbons (Brithish war medal and the Victory medal) were only issued in 1919-1920. There were also 1914 and 1914-15 stars which were issued for service overseas during those years, the ribbons for which were issued in (I think) early 1918 so, again, the date on the photo would have to be wrong. We also have to consider Jack Freeman's age in 1914 or 1915.

But if the date on the back of the photo is correct, then it would almost certainly have to be a gallantry award. Were any of your men awarded gallantry medals?

Was Jack Freeman too young to serve overseas? See my previous post; the answer is, technically, yes, but there are plenty of well-recorded instances of youngsters doing just that, and plenty of them were killed, too.

[Researcher11]

I agree with MC that it looks like he's wearing a medal ribbon, but the photo is so indistinct that it's hard to be certain. It does look like 1 ribbon, but the angle of his body or the position of his bandolier could be hiding a 2nd ribbon. It could be an 'imperial service' badge instead, in which case he would be serving with a Territorial Force unit and would have been serving with them since late 1914 or possibly early 1915.

But if it is a medal ribbon (or ribbons), the the most likely explanation is that it would be campaign medal(s), in which case the date on the back of the photo (1916) must be wrong. The main 2 campaign medal ribbons (Brithish war medal and the Victory medal) were only issued in 1919-1920. There were also 1914 and 1914-15 stars which were issued for service overseas during those years, the ribbons for which were issued in (I think) early 1918 so, again, the date on the photo would have to be wrong. We also have to consider Jack Freeman's age in 1914 or 1915.

But if the date on the back of the photo is correct, then it would almost certainly have to be a gallantry award. Were any of your men awarded gallantry medals?

Was Jack Freeman too young to serve overseas? See my previous post; the answer is, technically, yes, but there are plenty of well-recorded instances of youngsters doing just that, and plenty of them were killed, too.

This photo was found just this week & has instigated my research into my father's 3 brothers whose war service is unknown by the descendants of their siblings. So, I am literally just breaking ground into their history. hence we request to I.D the uniform. With all the name changes it's difficult to known what names to look for, so to know where to look could narrow it down for me. I'm not sure where to take my research now... any suggestions ?

Researcher11

[Peter Doyle]

Could the 'Star" be anything to do with a Jewish regiment ? (If there was such a thing) As my father's family were Jewish.

No, not really. The only badge identified Jewish units were the 38th-40th battalions Royal Fusiliers, raised in 1918, who wore the Menorah candle stick device, and, of course, Jewish chaplains, who were technically officers, and who wore the Star of David with a crown, and were non combatant.

ASC seems a possibility, but the badge doesn't look absolutely right. I did wonder, (and this is a real longshot) whether there was any similarity to the Army cyclist Corps badge here...just a thought.

Cheers

Peter

[Researcher11]

This is as good as I can get the badge

[Researcher11]

The medals look like there were 2 of them (to an untrained eye) ?

This might be better

[Researcher11]

No, not really. The only badge identified Jewish units were the 38th-40th battalions Royal Fusiliers, raised in 1918, who wore the Menorah candle stick device, and, of course, Jewish chaplains, who were technically officers, and who wore the Star of David with a crown, and were non combatant.

ASC seems a possibility, but the badge doesn't look absolutely right. I did wonder, (and this is a real longshot) whether there was any similarity to the Army cyclist Corps badge here...just a thought.

Cheers

Peter

Wow... your suggestion might not be such a longshot, you might have something there Peter... because I know some of the family were very keen cyclists & were members of a cyclists group in the early part of the 1900's. I wonder if this interest was carried on thru the family. How can I find out more about this - Army Cyclist Corps ? What part did they play during WW1 ?

Researcher11

[Researcher11]

Also, my father & all his brothers were in the TA. My father never went to war, I don't know why, as all his brothers did. He was born in 1907 & was in the TA for 6 years & then joined the Aux Fire Service in Liverpool. Would the Cycling Corps also wear jodhpurs ? Another person has pointed out to me that they are wound the opposite way ? (not sure what he means by this)

Researcher11

[Peter Doyle]

The Cyclists would wear breeches and puttees that would be would from the knee down to the ankle (like all mounted troops), rather than from the ankle to the knee (as with most).

Cheers

Peter

[Peter Doyle]

Wow... your suggestion might not be such a longshot, you might have something there Peter... because I know some of the family were very keen cyclists & were members of a cyclists group in the early part of the 1900's. I wonder if this interest was carried on thru the family. How can I find out more about this - Army Cyclist Corps ? What part did they play during WW1 ?

Researcher11

Here's the cyclists badge. There were several cyclist battalions (mostly territorials) and a Army Cyclist Corps in the Great War, which seems a little odd to us now. Other experts will tell you more, but basically, while some never left the shores of the UK, others were deployed overseas.

Cheers

Peter

[Researcher11]

Here's the cyclists badge. There were several cyclist battalions (mostly territorials) and a Army Cyclist Corps in the Great War, which seems a little odd to us now. Other experts will tell you more, but basically, while some never left the shores of the UK, others were deployed overseas.

Cheers

Peter

But, that badge doesn't look much like the star on his cap does it. ?

Researcher 11

[headgardener]

I tried to post here this morning but had a computer failure.

I doubt that you'll get much further with this based only on this photo. The cap badge is too indistinct, there's some uncertainty about the names they used, and there are several possible candidates amongst the medal index cards. I reckon your next step needs to be checking service papers for all the various permutations of your men's names.

Are there any other sources of information? Letters, medals, family stories, etc?

Another possibility is to check the local Voters List and the 1918 and 1919 Absent Voters Lists (if they survive - and that's a very big 'if'; the AVL usually the serviceman's regimental number and unit). It may also confirm what variations of their names they were 'officially' using.

Another possibility is for you to have another look at the writing on the back of the photo. It says 'Jack Freeman' so there's a reasonable chance that it's him, but does the writing date from that period or is it much more modern? Perhaps you could post a picture of it here? I made some observations regarding the date in my earlier post.

[Wardog]

Possible. Put the idea of a star aside and think of the pictured badge polished-it could be.

[Peter Doyle]

But, that badge doesn't look much like the star on his cap does it. ?

I don't think it's actually a star, as per Wardog! The cyclists badge actually has five points, if you look at it. Anyway, up to you.

Peter

[Researcher11]

I tried to post here this morning but had a computer failure.

I doubt that you'll get much further with this based only on this photo. The cap badge is too indistinct, there's some uncertainty about the names they used, and there are several possible candidates amongst the medal index cards. I reckon your next step needs to be checking service papers for all the various permutations of your men's names.

Are there any other sources of information? Letters, medals, family stories, etc?

Another possibility is to check the local Voters List and the 1918 and 1919 Absent Voters Lists (if they survive - and that's a very big 'if'; the AVL usually the serviceman's regimental number and unit). It may also confirm what variations of their names they were 'officially' using.

Another possibility is for you to have another look at the writing on the back of the photo. It says 'Jack Freeman' so there's a reasonable chance that it's him, but does the writing date from that period or is it much more modern? Perhaps you could post a picture of it here? I made some observations regarding the date in my earlier post.

Thank you all for this help & advice. Unfortunately, there are no other letters, medals etc. The photo of the young soldier belongs to my first cousin who is 81. She is as sharp as a razor as far as her memory & mental ability are concerned & she has found this photo recently. However, the reason I am doubting the information is because, the handwriting on the back of the photo is my cousin's own hand, done, she thinks, in the 60's/70's, from info her mother gave to her. Her mother was married to a younger brother of Jack Freeman. My cousin has written his name on the photo "Jack freeman" & the date "1916" & also that he died of cancer. Well, for a start, Isaac/Jack's DC shows that he died in March 1940 of Disseminated Sclerosis or MS as it is now known. She had another photo of "Jack Freeman" (Below) I had never known Isaac/Jack & so I'm seeing him for the 1st time. This photo below is taken in the 1930's. I don't think the young soldier looks anything like this photo, who she says is also Jack Freeman. This makes me wonder if my 81 year-old cousin's mum has given her the correct information- given that her mother has got his cause of death wrong. My cousin's mother would not have been married so early & so will not have known much about the other two brothers Elias who died in 1921 & Abraham who has only been discovered on the 1911 census & nothing is known of Abraham. So, I don't think the information is from a reliable source. As I said, this photo doesn't look like the same person as the young uniformed soldier, apart from the dimple in his chin, the young soldier's hair looks much more fair & his complexion is very fresh faced. We have no photo of Elias or Abraham. Elias was Jack's full brother, so maybe he had a dimple too.

[headgardener]

Hard to say whether it's the same man or not; it could be, I wouldn't rule it out. And I don't think you can see enough of the younger man's hair to be able to say. Remember that the younger photo is taken at a very different angle to the older photo. There's a real art to matching photos taken at different times, and while I'm open to other suggestions, I'd say that it could well be him.

I'd also suggest that we ignore the date on the photo. He seesm to be wearing medal ribbons, so I'd suggest that 1919-1920 is a more likely option. Maybe you'll find something in the Voters Lists?

Regarding the badge, I think we can speculate about it, but we won't come to any definitive conclusion because it's just not possible with such an indistinct image.

Also, another option may be to check the 'Jewish Roll of Honour' for WW1 to see how many I. or J. Freeman/Freedman/etc come up, and what units they're with. You could then cross reference with the MIC's and CWGC and try to narrow it down that way.

[Researcher11]

Hard to say whether it's the same man or not; it could be, I wouldn't rule it out. And I don't think you can see enough of the younger man's hair to be able to say. Remember that the younger photo is taken at a very different angle to the older photo. There's a real art to matching photos taken at different times, and while I'm open to other suggestions, I'd say that it could well be him.

I'd also suggest that we ignore the date on the photo. He seesm to be wearing medal ribbons, so I'd suggest that 1919-1920 is a more likely option. Maybe you'll find something in the Voters Lists?

Regarding the badge, I think we can speculate about it, but we won't come to any definitive conclusion because it's just not possible with such an indistinct image.

Also, another option may be to check the 'Jewish Roll of Honour' for WW1 to see how many I. or J. Freeman/Freedman/etc come up, and what units they're with. You could then cross reference with the MIC's and CWGC and try to narrow it down that way.

Thanks, for this help & advice. I just needed someone to point me in the right direction.

I'll come back & let you know if I fend anything.

Researcher11

[Muerrisch]

The age thing rears its ugly head again.

Until late in the war, a soldier needed to be 19 yrs old to go on active service EXCEPT [Mobilisation Regs 1914] for certain categories and with the unit CO's permission. These exceptions included: drummers, buglers, trumpeters and pipers. These could certainly be as young as 16.

A soldier for mounted duty [as the photo strongly suggests] could easily be an unbadged trumpeter.

[Researcher11]

Hi everyone,

I managed to get hold od the original photo & scanned it at 600. Hope this helps you to confirm the badge for me.

[headgardener]

Cap-badge and shoulder-title are ASC/RASC. Certainly looks like a BWM ribbon above his left breast-pocket, so picture can be dated to 1919 or 1920.