Is this real?

[centurion]

I've always been sceptic with regard to most WW1 action photos - the camera angle so often gives them away. However this one of the RND just might be possible? Can any of you Gallipoli experts identify exactly were on the peninsular this is?

[RobL]

The photo is on page 66 of the 'British Army Handbook 1914-1918', it's IWM Q13324 and the caption is;

'Gallipoli. Men of the 2nd Royal Naval Brigade practise an attack on the island of Imbros in June 1915. The real attempts to advance on Helles ended with high casualties and failure'

[michaeldr]

Have a look at Bean's diary entry for 2nd June 1916 see -My link

You can read there his opinion of the British photographer Ernest Brooks: "plucky little chap & a good photographer ….but you will have to keep a tight hand on him to see that he doesn't fake…" (Bean also describes Brooks as "undoubtedly very brave in trying to get real pictures whenever he sees them – out in front lines or anywhere")

Harking back to their Gallipoli days, this is one of the examples of a faked photograph by Brooks which is cited by Bean who says it was taken on the island of Imbros.

Another example of one of Brooks' faked Gallipoli photographs (per Bean) is the famous one of a Turkish sniper all rigged-up in green branches and twigs standing between two soldiers. Bean says that the Turk was a prisoner of war on Imbros and that the two soldiers were from an Australian Field Bakery there

regards

Michael

[horatio2]

The 2nd Naval Brigade RND comprised Hood, Howe and Anson Battalions and, in the aftermath of the 3rd Battle of Krithia, they had been sent to Imbros for "an essential rest" in the words of the Divisional Historian. The Divisional History contains a photograph of the 2nd Brigade being inspected by Hamilton on Imbros in June 1915. The 'assault' photograph was taken in this period.

[centurion]

Thanks all

The photo was originally issued by the Central News Agency in 1915 and was at the time (mis)captioned as being taken in Gallipoli! My scepticism is renewed again

[michaeldr]

In case anyone is unable to read Bean via the link above, here is what he says about this particular picture

"And he faked a second picture of a 'Charge of the Royal Naval Division at the Dardanelles' which is the most famous picture taken there. At the first sight of the picture (officers leading men tumbling out of trench…[word unclear]…) I thought "What a magnificent war photo…. but where can it be? There are no hills on the Peninsula like it. I've never charged up into the bosom of them from across the flat" and then it flashed on me. "Why of course they're the hills at Imbros at the back of the War Correspondents' Camp. And there are the dark trees in which the correspondents' camp lies." Bartlett said that Brooks didn't admit this at first – but afterwards he did and he makes no bones about it now"

[Guest]

Thanks all

The photo was originally issued by the Central News Agency in 1915 and was at the time (mis)captioned as being taken in Gallipoli! My scepticism is renewed again

It looks very like to a still from a film I was watching last night.... in Gallipoli... I am here now at the Gallipoli Houses. I was given an excellent Turkish produced documentary called "Gallipoli" (no surprises there) on DVD last night by the owner (GWF member the Plumed Goose). I will re-look at it tonight and report back. There are some fragments of original film in the documentary.

MG

[michaeldr]

There are some fragments of original film in the documentary.

Martin,

I think that the only Allied footage shot during the campaign was by Bartlett & Brooks

Quotes: "The cameraman for ‘Heroes’ was Ellis Ashmead Bartlett, an experienced and energetic British war correspondent. Apart from the second last scene, which was taken by the British Official Photographer Ernest Brooks, all footage is Bartlett’s."

and

"The scenes shot are of Gallipoli, Suvla, Helles and Imbros"

[From; The Joint Imperial War Museum / Australian War Memorial Battlefield Study Tour to Gallipoli, September 2000

Gallipoli: The film “With the Dardanelles Expedition: heroes of Gallipoli” By George Imashev (AWM)]

Best regards to all at TGH

Michael

[Guest]

Interesting. I have heard of (and think I have seen) footage of a re-enactment (1920s?) which might also be a candidate for the still ...It just struck me seeing Centurion's photo that there was extremely strong similarity with the footage (espaecially as I had only watched it hours before), as I recall noting how there was a staggered exit from the trenches and that one of the nearest troops was late getting out relative to the others...

[Waddell]

Interesting. I have heard of (and think I have seen) footage of a re-enactment (1920s?) which might also be a candidate for the still ...

Martin,

Are you thinking of the footage shot for the movie "Tell England" made in 1931. There is a thread about this somewhere in the forum bowels. I think the Gallipoli scenes were shot in Dorset.

Scott

[michaeldr]

I think the Gallipoli scenes were shot in Dorset.

Scott,

This is from a previous post of mine on the subject of 'Tell England'

Anthony Asquith (son of the former PM) directed this, his first taking-movie, which was released in1931. A. P. Herbert, a Gallipoli vet, helped him with the script. The Admiralty co-operated with use of men and ships. Action scenes were shot on Malta, with the Syracuse to Malta mail boat, the Lubiana acting as the River Clyde. Other scenes were shot at Welwyn studio and Asquith also used his own home The Wharf, Sutton Courtney, Berks, for some scenes. The Gallipoli vets from the 4th Batt. the Royal Sussex Regiment who saw the film at their reunion in 1931 were reportedly very impressed with the films gripping recreations.

Earnest Raymond, the author of the original book, makes no mention of the film in his two volume autobiography.

details from an article by Philip Dutton in 'The Gallipolian' the journal of The Gallipoli Association, No.97, Winter 2001-2002, pages 20-28

regards

Michael

[JCR]

Practise or not, the two chaps out front on the left have some legs on them. That's some pretty quick speed they have there.

[daggers]

False starts now lead to disqualification!

D

[Guest]

Just watched the DVD again...my mistake, it was not footage but it did use exactly the same still photo. Personally I think it is a photo from a re-enactment. Interesting to note that it was the RND who also played the part in the film re-enactment.

As an aside, I walked Kiretch Tepe (Kirectepe) today at midday. 100 degrees. It was a very difficult climb up to (and beyond) Jephson's Post. Sangars still intact on the ridge. How the Irish Div got that far is beyond me. Very hard terrain. Not suitable for the gun-jumpers in the left of the photo.

MG

[horatio2]

If the "re-enactment" was filmed in 1920 it did not include the RND, which had disbanded in the previous year. The still photo in post #1 was taken on Imbros in June 1915, in my opinion.

[michaeldr]

Even if you are one of those who choose not to believe everything which Mr. (later Dr.) Bean says (after all, he got one of the dates of the filming wrong and (probably) the nationality of the troops in one of the scenes) nevertheless, you will notice that only one RND man is wearing a cap and that all the rest are wearing sun-helmets.

This is in exactly inverse proportion to what actually happened on the peninsula. The sun-helmets where very quickly discarded as they fell over one's eyes when one lay down to fire one's rifle. On the peninsula, the cap or even the cap-comforter was the preferred headdress. Though the latter did cause some problems in occasionally being mistaken for a Turkish 'Enver' helmet.

In the photograph, the almost 100% use of the sun-helmet indicates that this was shot on one of the islands, when the troops were (allegedly) at a rest camp, and when discipline regarding headgear was enforceable.

regards

Michael

[horatio2]

I agree entirely. Although the sun-helmets were occasionally worn on the peninsula when out of the line, they were not at all useful as 'fighting kit'. The photo referred to in my post #4 appears to show the RND men parading in helmets but the reproduction is not very clear.

[Jeff Pickerd]

Horatio2 & michaeldr,

There is no-doubt as to the photo of the RND charging from the trench being that taken by Ernest Brooks on Mudros, and as such, a staged photograph, but it does have a great value to the history of the Gallipoli campaign.

The image of the RND men leaving the trench does resemble what the men of the 8th LH Regt have left recorded of the charge at the Nek.

There is no photograph record of that charge, it was still dark and it would have been suicidal, let alone impossible, to attempt such a shot, so a staged photo such as this is the only means of a comparative visual, and this one does that very well.

Quote:

Even if you are one of those who choose not to believe everything which Mr. (later Dr.) Bean says (after all, he got one of the dates of the filming wrong and (probably) the nationality of the troops in one of the scenes) nevertheless, you will notice that only one RND man is wearing a cap and that all the rest are wearing sun-helmets.

This is in exactly inverse proportion to what actually happened on the peninsula. The sun-helmets where very quickly discarded as they fell over one's eyes when one lay down to fire one's rifle. On the peninsula, the cap or even the cap-comforter was the preferred headdress. Though the latter did cause some problems in occasionally being mistaken for a Turkish 'Enver' helmet.

In the photograph, the almost 100% use of the sun-helmet indicates that this was shot on one of the islands, when the troops were (allegedly) at a rest camp, and when discipline regarding headgear was enforceable.

regards

Michael

Horatio2:

I agree entirely. Although the sun-helmets were occasionally worn on the peninsula when out of the line, they were not at all useful as 'fighting kit'. The photo referred to in my post #4 appears to show the RND men parading in helmets but the reproduction is not very clear.

The image of the RND men charging wearing Pith Helmets (Wolseley Helmet) has no bearing on where the photograph was taken, nor to the suggested use, virtually all New Army Territorial troops who arrived at Gallipoli, end of July, wore the Wolseley helmet.

Even the 3rd Light Horse Brigade arrived at Anzac Cove on the 21st May, all ranks equipped with the Wolseley, all Slouch hats were handed in and helmets issued as per Brigade orders.

There is ample photographic evidence of British units at Anzac and Sulva issued with the Wolseley. The 8th Battalion Royal Welch Fusiliers attacked up Monash Gully on the 7th August, all wearing the Wolseley helmet. Photograph of wounded at casualty dressing station clearly shows this.

The 8th Battalion Cheshire Regiment up on Russell's Top had them, the men of the 8th & 10th LH Regiments wore them when they charged at the Nek, as set out by order in Operational Order No.1.

The 6th Leinster's are all wearing them in a photograph taken of them coming back down off Walker's Ridge, the second week of August.

There are photographs of the 7th Gloucesters advancing from the Apex, going into attack on the Turkish lines at Chumuk Bair on the 8th August. Every man wearing a Wolseley helmet.

Lastly, the Gallipoli footage taken by Ellis Ashmead Bartlett has numerous examples of the Territorials at Mudros, and at Suvla Bay, with Woseley helmets.

Jeff

[horatio2]

Very interesting but the RND Brigade was on Imbros, not Lemnos (Mudros) in June 1915.

Notwithstanding the issue and use of pith helmets by the army units mentioned, I still think Michael is correct to say that the RND did not treasure this bit of kit. There are numerous photographs of RND men in the Gallipoli trenches and the pith helmet is not much in evidence - except occasionally in the rear areas.

The inspection of the 2nd Brigade RND on Imbros by the C-in-C probably resulted in the re-appearance of the pith helmet for the parade and its subsequent use in the photograph.

[michaeldr]

Jeff,

Thanks for your interest here and for the examples of the Army regiments that wore the sun helmet at Gallipoli. Whatever the Army's practice however, the sun helmet was not found to be practicle by ratings of the Royal Naval Division. When you lay down to fire your rifle the back of the helmet hit your shoulder line below the neck and this knocked the helmet forward over your eyes so that you could not see anything, never mind where to aim your rifle.

The photograph below is from the IWM and it also appears in Len Sellers' book 'The Hood Battalion' pub. Leo Cooper 1995 [iSBN 0 85053 386 9] It was taken at the White House which was captured in May, 1915. The four sun helmets in the foreground belong to officers, however you will notice that not a single one of the seventeen or so other ranks in the picture is wearing a sun helmet.

Bean's diary entry confirms that the shot in post #1 was staged on Imbros, not Mudros which is on Lemnos:

There are no hills on the Peninsula like it. I've never charged up into the bosom of them from across the flat" and then it flashed on me. "Why of course they're the hills at Imbros at the back of the War Correspondents' Camp. And there are the dark trees in which the correspondents' camp lies."

Best regards

Michael

[johnshep]

Lastly, the Gallipoli footage taken by Ellis Ashmead Bartlett has numerous examples of the Territorials at Mudros, and at Suvla Bay, with Woseley helmets.

Apologies as this is slightly tangential to the topic. Jeff - Could you possibly give me a reference to the Ashmead Bartlett footage and do you know if it includes coverage of the Yeomanry advance on 21 August when I believe I am right in saying that Ashmead Bartlett and his camera were buried for a while by upcast from a shell burst?

John

[michaeldr]

John,

Re the Bartlett & Brooks film and until Jeff gets back on-line

There is some useful info re refs. in the author's notes on page 3 of the doc. to which I referred in post No. 8

All the best

Michael

[Guest]

Very interesting but the RND Brigade was on Imbros, not Lemnos (Mudros) in June 1915.

Back to Centurion's photo... I just noticed that the same photo is used in Harvey Broadbent's "Gallipoli - The Fatal Shore" where it is described as "Men of the Royal Naval Division training in Lemnos....." The source of the photo is The Australian War Memorial, Canberra [G00309]. No date is given.

MG

[michaeldr]

MG,

The AWM collection is a marvelous resource and generously made freely available on-line, however their captions are far from 100%.

[One example which is currently providing me with a puzzle can be seen here My link on page III, post # 73. So far I have no trace of the MM referred to as being awarded posthumously to Tpr Harry Bunyan]

In the particular case of the photograph in Cent's first post; it was taken by Ernest Brooks RNVR, the British photographer, and a copy must have been made available to Australia by the authorities in London. Perhaps the caption got garbled in that transfer process (but that's only a guess). I think that Bean can be relied upon here, and his diary account ties in with the RND's movements as described by H2.

regards

Michael