Lt William Noble, Notts & Derbys

[corisande]

I am researching this man as he is one of a block of 5 "Special Appointments" of which 3 can be tied to Intelligence posts in Ireland in 1920. I succeeded in tracking down a descendant who told me

The family believe that he was the Kings Messenger and was sent to Ireland. He had child with a woman whilst over there, and the family were most upset. They are all buried in Wilford Hill in Nottingham.

My take on William Noble is here

The absent voters list enables one to link the earlier census records to him, and on to other army appointments

1. 1892 July born Underwood, Nottinghamshire

2. Became a coal miner

3. Enlisted Notts &Derby Regiment service no 28171

3. Rose to sgt

4. Commission circa 1917/1918

5. Resigned commission 1920 but the resignation was then annulled in Gazette and he got a grade "GG" Special Appointment effective 1 Jun 1920 (of the 5 men on that block of GG appointments, Boddington, Carew, Hyem and Attwood were all known to have been in Intelligence in Ireland. and 4 out of the 5 got gongs in the same New Year Honours in 1923)

6. Got MBE in 1923

6. He died in Nottingham in 1953

Like many WW1 men, the family today know virtually nothing about him

I in turn know virtually nothing about King's Messengers. I thought they were "ex" officers rather than "serving" officers. In other words the appointment of King's Messenger was a civilian appointment rather than a military one. Please correct me if you know.

Would a Kings Messenger be actually stationed in Dublin as the family believe ? Or were they more likely to have been London based, and carried diplomatic bags to any country?

[IPT]

Could this have been be the man below, and not King?

1920. He then returned to Ireland where he served as a District Inspector with the Irish constabulary from 1920 to 1922 (the family have District Inspector, RIC, but he was with Auxiliares) He was in the intelligence section of F Company in Dublin Castle. He was the commander of "F" Company Auxiliary Division, based in Dublin Castle. Prisoners captured with seditious documents of any importance or weapons found on them were taken to Dublin Castle to be interrogated in the intelligence office, by (not exclusively) the team of Captain Jocelyn Lee Hardy DSO MC and his friend, Major William Lorraine 'Tiny' King MC. He appears to be the same man as "Nobel" or "Noble" in IRA accounts, and that he used this as a nom de guerre, probably because "King" was not a good name to have in Dublin at that time..

[corisande]

Could this have been be the man below, and not King?

He appears to be the same man as "Nobel" or "Noble" in IRA accounts, and that he used this as a nom de guerre, probably because "King" was not a good name to have in Dublin at that time..

On balance I am coming round to the conclusion that there were two men on the hit list that morning - Noble and King

When doing the original trawl there were three names referred to at addresses that yielded no soldiers - Nobel, Noble and King. I came across a further reference to King being Noble, and that seemed logical, given I had nothing on Noble.

I now have the "Special Appointment" of William Noble, and tat does indicate that he was in Intelligence, and would therefore have had a good chance of being on the hit list.

Either way I am left with the problem of finding out if this man William Noble was in Intelligence. His family know that he was in Ireland, and he did have a "special appointment", but they believe he was a King's Messenger.

As the King's Messenger bit is all I have at the moment, I am trying to establish if that could have been the case with William Noble or not. If I can establish King was a separate intelligence man to King (and therefore that Noble was not a nom de guerre for King), then I can redo the addresses raided to reflect two men not at home, rather than 1.

[corisande]

Joys of being wrong. It transpires that there were two different William Noble in the same regiment at the same time, both were commissioned from the ranks

I have corrected the MIC now to the correct one - it has his correct address on it, and records his MBE

http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/castle-intelligence/noble/noble.html

The MBE entry in the Times shows that 4 out of 5 men posted with "Special Appointments" in 1920, got awards in this set of New Year Honours in 1923. Civilian rather than Military.

[mikebriggs]

Its my understanding that W Noble, along with HF Boddington, P Atwood, Carew, EP Hyem, PWH Carpetnter and A Thorp were Army Intelligence under the direct orders of Major General CF Boyd. However at some point they were transferred by him to the Chief of Police (D Branch).

cheers

Mike

[corisande]

Its my understanding that W Noble, along with HF Boddington, P Atwood, Carew, EP Hyem, PWH Carpetnter and A Thorp were Army Intelligence under the direct orders of Major General CF Boyd. However at some point they were transferred by him to the Chief of Police (D Branch).

Thanks you for that Mike. I am always grateful for any new insights on the murky work of Intelligence

Couple of questions. Do you recall where you came across that list?

And any idea as to why Hyem got OBE and Attwood, Carew and Noble were only MBE.

The area between D Branch and Military seems aprticularly obscure, and I struggle to see who reported to who in that situation

[mhifle]

Hi,

Looking at his Medal Card he landed in France 9 March 1916 and the 16th (Service) Battalion (Chatsworth Rifles)& 17th (Service) Battalion (Welbeck Rangers)

landed in France 6 March 1916. So maybe he was with one of these battalions.

28 Nov 1918 Army List

THE SHERWOOD FORESTERS (NOTTINGHAMSHIRE AND DERBYSHIRE REGIMENT)

Service Battalions.

9th,10th,11th,12th,15th,16th,& 17th Bn.

Temporary 2nd Lieutenant

(1)* Noble W 18Dec17

attached 1st Battalion

Regards Mark

[corisande]

Thanks Mark

Any idea what the " (1)* " on that is. I know the date 17 Dec 1917 is when he was commissioned

On the basis of those battalion dates, it would look as if he was in the Welbeck one (15 miles from his home)

He is an interesting light on the changes in social attitudes that WW1 brought about, as he had been a coal miner before joining up in the ranks, and 5 years later gets an MBE

[headgardener]

(1)* Noble W 18Dec17

attached 1st Battalion

It's army list shorthand; the asterisk means 'attached', the number tells you which battalion he served with. He's listed as being commissioned into the service battalions of the N&DR, but clearly he didn't serve there (at least, not at that time, though army list appointments like that can be notoriously inaccurate - they often don't list the details for some time after the appt, or don't delete it for some time after it came to an end).

Edit; just remembered that the asterisk indicates temporary rank, it's the brackets that indicate attachment to a particular unit. The number 1 definately indicates 1st Bn.

[corisande]

OK thanks.

I never seem to manage to plumb the full depths of "army shorthand", I think I have cracked it, but there is always another one round the corner.

[mhifle]

Hi,

Some more Army Listings

Regards Mark

27 Nov 1919 Army List

THE SHERWOOD FORESTERS (NOTTINGHAMSHIRE AND DERBYSHIRE REGIMENT)

Service Battalions.

9th , 10th, 11th, 12th, 15th, 16th, &17th Bn.

Temporary Lieutenant

(1)* Noble W 18Jun19

29 Nov 1920 Army List

THE SHERWOOD FORESTERS (NOTTINGHAMSHIRE AND DERBYSHIRE REGIMENT)

Service Battalions.

Temporary Lieutenant

* Noble W 18Jun19 (spec appt)

Commands and Staff

Class GG

Noble, Temp Lt, W, Serv Bns, Notts & Derby Reg. 1 June 20

[mhifle]

Hi,

This would be his Long Army Number. 45 would be correct for NOTTINGHAMSHIRE AND DERBYSHIRE REGIMENT

Regards Mark

[corisande]

Thanks

I'll add it my list for Nat Archives next month

[mhifle]

Hi,

Here he is listed as wounded wth the Rank of Corporal in The Times 9 Oct 1916.

I think his regimental number would have him enlisting June 1915.

The 16th (Chatsworth Rifles) and 17th (Welbeck Rangers) Battalions arrived in France March 1916 and took part in the Somme Battle from August to the end in November 1916. Their losses were very heavy. Also heavily engaged in the 1917 offensive, and during the German offensive on the Somme and Lys in the Spring 1918. Due to severe losses reduced to Cadre strenght and used to train the newly arrived American Forces

Regards Mark

[mikebriggs]

Thanks you for that Mike. I am always grateful for any new insights on the murky work of Intelligence

Couple of questions. Do you recall where you came across that list?

And any idea as to why Hyem got OBE and Attwood, Carew and Noble were only MBE.

The area between D Branch and Military seems aprticularly obscure, and I struggle to see who reported to who in that situation

I've got copies of a couple of letters highlighting their role in Ireland and asking for either employment (or recognition). It does't really give any details although it does state that Hyem and Thorpe were on the adminstrative side, whilst the other 4 worked 'out on the streets'. The impression you get from letter is that the desk jobs were more important and might explain the OBE ??

It is a murky world. I am trying to find out about two Officers; Green and Chambers who were kidnapped and shot in Kerry. They were descirbed as Brigade 'Education Officers' so I don't know if that has another meaning.

PM me your e-mail and I'll send letters

cheers

Mike

[corisande]

Mike

I have sent you my email, many thanks

You may find it worth your while starting a new thread in the "Ireland" section here. It tends to get to the people who specialise in Ireland.

Oddly I could not find your men in the index of Dwyer's book "Tans, Terror and Trouble Kerry's real fighting story 1913-1923"

And for what its worth Newberrywho was shot on Bloody Sunday was in LG as "Education Officer" but was undoubtedly a Courts Martial man and shot for that reason

[BRONNO]

Some snippets of information i have on Lt Noble, The Notts and Derby Regt.

On enlistment he lived on Main Street Underwood, near Eastwood Notts, later moving to Coates Road, Underwood, Nottinghamashire.

Corporal 28171 with Sherwood Foresters and was commissioned 2^nd Lieut into Intelligence Corps then transferred to the Sherwood Foresters as a Lieut, Volunteered July 1915 and was at Wollaton Park in Nottingham, Aldershot and Whitley Camp.

Wounded on the Somme in 1916 and went to Base Hospital in France, after three weeks again volunteered to return to the line and re-joined the Sherwood Foresters.

Promoted to Sergeant and led an attack into enemy lines winning praise and admiration from all. His C.O. recommended him for a commission, and he was sent to England for training in April 1917.

Attended Officer Training College at Newark in Nottinghamshire and gained his commission being Gazetted 2nd Lieut to the 3rd Battalion (a holding btn) The Sherwood Foresters 18th December 1917 stationed at Sunderland.

Was with the 53^rd Young Soldiers Battalion at Rugeley 22nd February 1918.

To the Expeditionary Force France 22nd April 1918 joining the 1st Battalion on the 28th April 1918 at Blangy Wood. Wounded 27th May 1918 during the ordered retirement towards Guyencourt, returned to England 11th June 1918.

He died at Basford, Nottingham in 1953 aged 62 years.

[corisande]

Bronno

Sorry for delay in reply, but been on holiday!

Thanks for that, fills up some gaps in my write up of Noble. I am in contact with descendants, but they really know little about him. I have some more from Nat Archives, and am disentangling copious notes at the moment

I hope to do a rewrite on him soon.

[corisande]

It is interesting how information does remain in the family

Noble married a woman called Eileen in Dublin, but before that lived with another woman

The family recall "William having a lady friend before Eileen in Ireland who was tortured because she would not divulge any information about him, how true it is we are not sure.

But the IRA records show that mission that morning (Bloody Sunday) was to kill Noble, and his lady, who were both believed to be responsible for the death of an IRA man called Doyle in the Dublin Mountains.

They pushed past the teenage girl who opened the door and walked straight up to the front first floor room where they expected to find Noble. He was not there but they found a "half naked" woman alone in the double bed. She is described as Noble's mistress. Noble had left on a mission at 7am, and they had no orders to shoot the woman if she was alone, so they left. Dolan beat the woman with a sword scabbard, and set for to the room in his frustration. It took the IRA squad half an hour to put the flames out

I cannot find out who the man Doyle was who was killed in the Dublin Mountains, or what Noble's connect was with his death.