Prayers before battle

[kenf48]

And a new religion has risen in the trenches,

Or what Paul Fussell described in 'the Great War and Modern Memory' as a 'return to medieval mind set', with its associated talismans and superstitions, and on the Home Front, the Spiritualist Revival.

Also agreeing with your observation above that one selective example is not evidence that organised religion had no part to play in the social fabric of the Great War.

Given the millions who served even as a minority activity the numbers involved were significant. For sure many soldiers have left accounts of how their beliefs were tested, and not only their religious beliefs, by the conflict but there were many others who, in large numbers sought out spiritual guidance and comfort.

For example, Julian Bickerstethe (see above) records holding a service for '400 men from 4 Battalions' which, in the unlikely event the Battalions were up to strength, represents at least 10% attending an Anglican service. Extrapolating that figure (and probably higher in traditionally Catholic Regiments) across the Army that is many thousands who subscribed to, or at least attended Church Services, when possible.

Other accessible examples of large Services include the Revd.Rupert Inglis' diary, he records a service for 750 men at Etaples, and on a later occasion (at the behest of a visiting General) a combined Service for 2000 soldiers.

http://www.inglis.uk...%20thiepval.htm

Both these men, although devout and brave, were from the British 'upper class' and would intellectually probably had some difficulty with composing prayers 'before battle'. They would surely have been challenged by the notion of a senior officer seeking Divine Intervention like, for example Patton in WW2 famously demanding his Chaplain produce a 'prayer for good weather' when bogged down in the Ardennes. It would however be interesting to see their sermons, it seems they, and their colleagues had a clear definition of their role, and generally restricted formal religious observance to a routine of Services held, in the main on Sunday.

The Revd. Philip "Tubby" Clayton (once again, reiterating the theme of 'joy') sent this account of a typical Sunday in the Ypres Salient to his mother early in 1916.

"Yesterday's services were full of joy and promise....

I look forward to a really happy busy day tomorrow. Let me sketch my programme :

8 a.m., I shall probably attend the Celebration here and assist a fellow Chaplain, and all the Corps people will be there.

9.30 a.m., a small parade of a company of Labour Battalion here ; they are great pals of mine and have lent me an excellent L. Corporal who has been working day by day in the garden for weeks past.

10.30 a.m., a full parade of another Labour Battalion, any old one.

11.30, lunch (with some rhubarb out of the garden).

1 p.m., start in a car for a siege battery.

2 p.m., service there: and harmonium carried in car.

3.15 p.m., another siege battery.

5.30 p.m., service at Corps Headquarters.

6.30, Evening Service here.

It sounds a jolly day; and I shall try to talk about Mothering Sunday most of the time."

The fact he was looking forward to a 'jolly day' should not hide the fact these services were often conducted under fire. Clayton was a popular and legendary figure and the biography records his "services were packed, especially at the Great Festivals'.

http://www.archive.o...588mbp_djvu.txt

Struggling with this recurring theme of 'joy', perhaps it had a deeper meaning in 1914 than it's current context (cf 1930's 'Strength through Joy' movement in Nazi Germany).

Ken

[healdav]

I have read accounts where this prayer dating from the English Civil War was used.

“Oh Lord, thou knowest how busy I must be this day.

If I forget thee, do not thou forget me.

March on boys!”

Sir Jacob Astley's prayer before the battle of Edgehill

Michelle

A lot better than the 'authorised' prayer before battle in the Prayer Book of the C of E. Reading that would take the entire war.

[kenf48]

Neither of these examples are from WW1 however as they date from the Boer War it seems highly probable that WW1 Chaplains would have incorporated them in their sermons.

It was one of the first orders issued by Lord Roberts shortly after he and Kitchener landed in South Africa.

'ARMY HEADQUARTERS, CAPE TOWN, January 23rd.

'DEAR SIR,—I am desired by Lord Roberts to ask you to be so kind as to distribute to all ranks under your command the "Short Prayer for the use of Soldiers in the Field," by the Primate of Ireland, copies of which I now forward.

'His Lordship earnestly hopes that it may be helpful to all of her Majesty's soldiers who are now serving in South Africa.

'Yours faithfully,

'NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN, Colonel, Private Secretary.

'To the Commanding Officer.'

THE PRAYER.

'Almighty Father, I have often sinned against Thee. O wash me in the precious blood of the Lamb of God. Fill me with Thy Holy Spirit, that I may lead a new life. Spare me to see again those whom I love at home, or fit me for Thy presence in peace.

'Strengthen us to quit ourselves like men in our right and just cause. Keep us faithful unto death, calm in danger, patient in suffering, merciful as well as brave, true to our Queen, our country, and our colours.

'If it be Thy will, enable us to win victory for England, and above all grant us the better victory over temptation and sin, over life and death, that we may be more than conquerors through Him who loved us, and laid down His life for us, Jesus our Saviour, the Captain of the Army of God. Amen.'

The other example quoted is 'The Soldier's Psalm'

'The Soldier's Psalm' has been read and rejoiced in all through South Africa.

'He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in Him will I trust. Thou shall not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.... He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him. I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him. With long life will I satisfy him, and show him My salvation.'

Chanted in many a service, repeated in the darkness on outpost duty, remembered even amid the fury of the battle, this Soldiers' Psalm has been to thousands a source of comfort and strength.'

From Aldershot to Pretoria A Story of Christian Work among Our Troops in South Africa W. E. Sellershttp://www.gutenberg.org/files/16460/16460-h/16460-h.htm

The Soldier's Psalm has taken on a modern day resonance in the US. Based on another (apocryphal) WW1 legend of the US 91st Infantry Division who were issued with the psalm and although involved n the heaviest fighting suffered no casualties, as with all myths there may be an element of truth but there was, apparently, no 91st Division of the AEF. A Google search on 'Soldier's Psalm' neatly illustrates how in this century the web is used to promote a superstition and oral tradition (also referred to by Fussell) with it's origins firmly in the Great War.

Ken

[salesie]

Are there any examples of German soldiers' prayers and psalms, and/or photographs of German field services (or of Boer entreaties to their God)? They would be really interesting to see; after all, I believe that the German standard issue belt-buckle carried the words Gott mit uns (God with us) on it?

A comparison between German and Allied military prayers and religious services in the field would be a fascinating topic - two sides trying their damndest to kill as many of their enemies as quickly as possible, with both sides trying their best to curry favour with God and claim their cause to be divine? Or was it a truly Christian crusade by the Allies against the Godless Germans (and/or Boers)?

Following on from the American Poilu's claim that Catholic priests actually took up arms and served as ordinary French soldiers in the line (were they still that annoyed with Luther?), I have an image in my mind of two brave men, a British padre and a German pastor, in the line to tender to their respective flocks spiritual needs but meeting face to face in no man's land and fighting it out over whose side God was really on?

Cheers-salesie.

[centurion]

O

It sounds a jolly day; and I shall try to talk about Mothering Sunday most of the time."

The fact he was looking forward to a 'jolly day' should not hide the fact these services were often conducted under fire. Clayton was a popular and legendary figure and the biography records his "services were packed, especially at the Great Festivals'.

[

I suspect he was applying a degree of irony to his account

[David_Underdown]

There's some discussion of the role of chaplains in Richard Holmes' Tommy as I recall, there may be some insight on this topic. Certainly many chaplains found their experiences there changed the way they approached their ministry later in life.

Eric Milner-White for example, a scion of the middle-class who proceeded from Harrow to King's Cambridge, though after ordination he served curacies for 4 years in Newington and Woolwich, he then returned to King's as chaplain, he became a chaplain to the forces during the war, and according to the ODNB article on him, "he contributed an essay, ‘Worship and services’, to The Church in the Furnace (1918); this reflected his belief that the ministry of army chaplains provided by the established church did not meet the needs of the troops in the trenches."

Awarded the DSO in the 1918 New Year Honours, he returned to King's again later in 1918 as Dean of Chapel, and in the spirit of liturgical experiment arising from his essay, introduced the service of nine lessons and carols, which has been broadcast by the BBC every year since 1928.

His influence on at least student at King's (my grandfather) led to that student becoming a naval chaplain in WWII.

[CarylW]

Austrian services, both from War Illustrated 1915

Caption reads "Austrians taking communion at a temporary altar in Poland"

Caryl

[CarylW]

Thank you Caryl and Michele for your suggestions. I have seen that classic thread before Caryl but thank you for linking me to it again. I wish it were possible to read the text of Father Gleeson's blessing. My grandfather was in the Munsters but taken POW long before that day was captured on canvass. I think I will order a copy. I have The 2nd Munsters in France written by Lieutenant-Colonel H.S. Jervis, published by Schull Books. That wonderful painting is on the front cover. There is no reference to his prayer but, I found the following quote very fitting, it's dated May 2 1915: "At this time the Munsters were fortunate in having as their priest the Rev. Father Gleeson. He did not believe in admisistering spiritual consolation in safety and comfort five miles behind the line. He brought the Holy Sacrament up to the firing line and many a good Catholic of Munster has gone into battle fortified by Father Gleeson's cheering words a few minutes before the action." Also, "He spent the whole four days carrying out his holy office in the front lines within 150 yards of the enemy. Such was the priest who was in spiritual charge of the Battalion at the Rue du Bois."

Fortunate souls they were to have him.

If I find any other prayers or blessings I will follow up with them. Until then, any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Mike

Mike

Going back to your post. I found the following article on http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Father_Gleeson_and_his_Alter-Boy

"Cork Examiner (Cork), May 10, 1918

This is just part of the newspaper article (not that all written in newspapers is to be believed)

...........Sergeant-Major J. T, Leahy, of Monkstown , co. Cork, also gave a most interesting account of the work of the Munsters on the occasion, and the way they carried all before them. This Sergeant-Major had been what is known in Ireland as an "alter-boy" in his youth, and he used to serve Mass for Father Gleeson out at the front. Here is what this zealous and faithful non-commissioned officer had to say of the value of prayer. “Prayer,” he wrote, “more than anything else consoles me. And every fellow is the same. So the war has been the cause of making us all an army of saints.

In describing the battle, Sergeant-Major Leahy states that on the preceding day, May 8th, close to 800 men received Holy Communion from Fr. Gleeson, and wrote their names and home addresses in their hymn books. When evening came the regiment moved up to take its place in the trenches in the front of the Rue du Bois.

“At the entrance to the Rue du Bois” writes Mrs. Rickard, “there stands a broken shrine, and within the shrine a crucifix. When the Munsters came up the road Major Rickard halted the battalion. The men were ranged on three sides of a square, their green flags – a gift from Lady Gordan - placed before each company, Father Gleeson mounted, Colonel Rickard, and Captain Filgate, the Adjutant on their charges, were in the centre, and in that wonderful twilight Father Gleeson gave a general absolution.”

Here Sergeant-Major Leahy takes up and supports the story. "On the lonely, dark road-side," he says, "lit up now and then by flashes from our own or German flares, rose to Heaven the voices of 800 men singing that glorious hymn, ‘Hail, Queen of Heaven.’ There were no ribald jests or courage buoyed up by alcohol; none of the fanciful pictures which imagination conjures up of soldiers going to a desperate charge. No, there were brave hearts without fear, only hoping that God would bring them through, and if the end came – well it was only a little shortening of the allotted span. Every man had his rosary beads out, reciting the prayers in response to Father Gleeson, just as if at the Confraternity at home, instead of having to face death in a thousand hideous forces the following morning."

And then our sergeant-major tells us how Father Gleeson went down the ranks saying words of comfort, bidding good-bye to the officers, and "telling the men to keep up the honour of the regiment..........."

Also noticed this thread on the forum

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=91427

A member was offering scanned copies of Father Gleeson's Diary, hopefully they are still around

Caryl

[healdav]

Are there any examples of German soldiers' prayers and psalms, and/or photographs of German field services (or of Boer entreaties to their God)? They would be really interesting to see; after all, I believe that the German standard issue belt-buckle carried the words Gott mit uns (God with us) on it?

A comparison between German and Allied military prayers and religious services in the field would be a fascinating topic - two sides trying their damndest to kill as many of their enemies as quickly as possible, with both sides trying their best to curry favour with God and claim their cause to be divine? Or was it a truly Christian crusade by the Allies against the Godless Germans (and/or Boers)?

Following on from the American Poilu's claim that Catholic priests actually took up arms and served as ordinary French soldiers in the line (were they still that annoyed with Luther?), I have an image in my mind of two brave men, a British padre and a German pastor, in the line to tender to their respective flocks spiritual needs but meeting face to face in no man's land and fighting it out over whose side God was really on?

Cheers-salesie.

There certainly were priests and monks who were taken into the army a soldiers and officers. In fact, I came across one Jesuit priest who was a reserve infantry officer.

His memoirs (on the web, but don't ask me how I found them)said that when the men found out that he was a priest they asked him to Mass regularly and men from surrounding units came as well (in the frontish line). Foch made a tour one day and on meeting this priest asked him about saying Mass. The priest replied that he did so, but had to use ordinary cups, etc as he had no communion kit. He thought no more about it, but was amazed a few days later to receive a full field communion kit together with a letter from Foch.

[centurion]

Following on from the American Poilu's claim that Catholic priests actually took up arms and served as ordinary French soldiers in the line (were they still that annoyed with Luther?), I have an image in my mind of two brave men, a British padre and a German pastor, in the line to tender to their respective flocks spiritual needs but meeting face to face in no man's land and fighting it out over whose side God was really on?

He actually said

"The older clergy, as a rule, have been affected to the medical services of the front, serving as hospital orderlies and stretcher-bearers, but the younger priests have been put right into the army and are fighting to-day as common soldiers. There are hundreds of officer-priests --- captains and lieutenants of the regular army." which suggests a significant number in the commisssioned ranks. The comment about Luther is puzzling as a great many German soldiers would be Catholic

[salesie]

He actually said

"The older clergy, as a rule, have been affected to the medical services of the front, serving as hospital orderlies and stretcher-bearers, but the younger priests have been put right into the army and are fighting to-day as common soldiers. There are hundreds of officer-priests --- captains and lieutenants of the regular army." which suggests a significant number in the commisssioned ranks. The comment about Luther is puzzling as a great many German soldiers would be Catholic

I paraphrased what the yank actually said, Centurion, in my direct reference to his words - because it seems to me that his actual words make it non-too clear about the differences between the common soldier priests and the regular officer-priests. For example, are the French officer-priests he refers to the same as the British Army's non-combatant officer-priests, who were commissioned officers but not expected to take up a fighting role - or were they the same as the young French fighting priests and wholly combatant?

If as the British system, what's the point, in a combatant context, of highlighting a difference between the two i.e. did the young priests deliberately join as non-commissioned soldiers in order to be wholly combatant and thus willingly act against their vows? And, if both were wholly combatant, is there any difference in a religious context between commissioned and non-commissioned fighting soldier-priests?

As for my Luther comment, it was an attempt at sophisticated satire (obviously not a successful one)- and as with all satire, there has to be an element of great irony stemming from its target. And what could be more ironical than the picture developing in this thread - a picture of both sides going to great lengths to "enlist" God's help in winning the war - along with evidence that priests were actually willing combatants in the army of at least one of the major belligerents? And when we add into the mix the following comment from a well-known encyclopaedia, the urge for satire became almost irresistible:

"The Reformation initiated by Martin Luther in 1517 divided German Christians between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. The Peace of Augsburg (1555) introduced the principle that (with some exceptions) the inhabitants of each of Germany’s numerous territories should follow the religion of the ruler; thus, the south and west became mainly Roman Catholic, the north and east Protestant. Religious affiliation had great effect not only on subjective factors such as culture and personal attitudes but also on social and economic developments."

Seeing as Prussia made up most of the Protestant North and East of a united Germany (with Prussia being the dominant force in German unification), and that fighting against Prussian militarism was a fairly common maxim in 1914-18 (especially in France after the Franco-Prussia war), and given the undoubted fact of the Vatican’s great displeasure with Luther and his “reforms”, I thought that my satirical reference to Luther was quite smart really.

Now, you’ve presented me with another potentially satirical moment that I simply can’t resist. Many Germans soldiers would indeed have been catholic, so would the soldier-priests of France have seen this as an efficiency drive? Kill the enemy, and if their victim was catholic, give him the last-rights before moving-on to their next kill?

Bad-taste on my part? It may well be – but to me the height of bad-taste is the concept of fighting a war in which the representatives of organised religion on both sides actively spur on the men in the field (or even join them as combatants in some cases) by attempting to instil in them the notion that God was somehow on their side. Did the padres, priests, pastors etc. believe that God, a God who they believe sent his only son to teach us how to turn the other cheek, would actually take their side and ensure victory for their side? Or did they simply believe that the side which prayed loudest and longest would win God’s favour in the end? Or, even more cynically, did they believe that the men they’d imbued with an unshakeable belief that they were carrying out God’s will in a just cause would be better, more fearless fighters?

Perhaps I’m the only one to see the great irony, and the rank hypocrisy, which links religious faith to war in general, and to this war in particular?

Cheers-salesie.

[Glesga Highlander]

I know from a diary I have of a soldier of the 17th Glasgow Commercials that the Roman Catholics of the Battalion dropped out for Mass and Communion at Crucifix Corner at the Aveluy / Authuille crossroads as they made their way along that road the night before the opening of the Battle of the Somme.

[CarylW]

This poem is one of those that is apparently often quoted when the subject of religion in the trenches crops up. I know there are a lot of others

Found it in "Never Such Innocence: Poems of the First World War" an anthology of poems edited by Martin Stephen. Also in a lot of other war poetry collections

A small bio in the back states: "Her work appeared in Clarke (ed) A Treasury of War Poetry (1919) Eaton (ed) The War in Verse (1918) Foxcroft (ed) War Verse (1918) and Holman (ed) In the Day of Battle (1916)

Christ in Flanders

We had forgotten You, or very nearly —

You did not seem to touch us very nearly—

Of course we thought about You now and then ;

Especially in any time of trouble —

We knew that You were good in time of trouble-

But we are very ordinary men.

And there were always other things to think of —

There's lots of things a man has got to think of—

His work, his home, his pleasure, and his wife ;

And so we only thought of You on Sunday —

Sometimes, perhaps, not even on a Sunday —

Because there's always lots to fill one's life.

And, all the while, in street or lane or byway —

In country lane, in city street, or byway —

You walked among us, and we did not see.

Your feet were bleeding as You walked our pave-

ments —

How did we miss Your footprints on our pavements ? —

Can there be other folk as blind as we ?

Now we remember; over here in Flanders —

(It isn't strange to think of You in Flanders) —

This hideous warfare seems to make things clear.

We never thought about You much in England —

But now that we are far away from England,

We have no doubts, we know that You are here.

You helped us pass the jest along the trenches —

Where, in cold blood, we waited in the trenches —

You touched its ribaldry and made it fine.

You stood beside us in our pain and weakness —

We're glad to think You understand our weakness —

Somehow it seems to help us not to whine.

We think about You kneeling in the Garden —

Ah ! God ! the agony of that dread Garden —

We know You prayed for us upon the cross.

If anything could make us glad to bear it —

'Twould be the knowledge that You willed to bear it —

Pain — death — the uttermost of human loss.

Though we forgot You — You will not forget us —

We feel so sure that You will not forget us —

But stay with us until this dream is past.

And so we ask for courage, strength, and pardon —

Especially, I think, we ask for pardon —

And that You'll stand beside us to the last.

Lucy Whitmell

.......................................

Caryl

(By the way, I'm not the slightest bit religious, material posted by me does not reflect my views, just contributing to the thread)

[salesie]

This poem is one of those that is apparently often quoted when the subject of religion in the trenches crops up. I know there are a lot of others

Found it in "Never Such Innocence: Poems of the First World War" an anthology of poems edited by Martin Stephen. Also in a lot of other war poetry collections

A small bio in the back states: "Her work appeared in Clarke (ed) A Treasury of War Poetry (1919) Eaton (ed) The War in Verse (1918) Foxcroft (ed) War Verse (1918) and Holman (ed) In the Day of Battle (1916)

.......................................

Caryl

(By the way, I'm not the slightest bit religious, material posted by me does not reflect my views, just contributing to the thread)

An interesting and welcome contribution, Caryl. Interesting because Lucy Whitmell, in this relatively early poem (first seen in September 1915, I believe), juxtaposes 'then' and 'now' and 'we' (mortals) and 'You' (God).

The juxtaposition of ‘then’ and ‘now’ in this poem plays up a revival of religious belief, she clearly claims a general rediscovery of God in the wake of the war. She argues that the English took God and their way of life for granted until such ideals needed to be defended; like God, she calls upon her reader to support the war, and the English values that it represents. There is no uncertainty for her about God’s support, for in the poem he appears in Flanders, in the trenches with the men, telling the best jokes, and listening sympathetically to the men’s complaints. And at the end of the poem she asks (on behalf of the men at the front) for ‘courage, strength, and pardon, especially, she thinks, for pardon - not only for previously doubting the existence of God, but also for unmentioned sins committed in the name of war.

I have several problems with this poem (and its like) i.e.

1) Whitmell assumes, almost arrogantly, that God is on 'our' side - she does not place God in a position to watch over the men, but places him in the actual trenches, a position which at other times might be construed as sacrilegious instead of patriotic because it suggests that God too is taking up arms in defence of England.

She offers no thought at all that Christians also filled the enemy ranks - she clearly believes that her Christian God, whose values she claims 'we' are defending, is absent from the enemy trenches. Her God, it would seem, was a patriotic Englishman - a God who completely ignored the entreaties of other, non-English, Christians.

2) In the poem she clearly aligns Christ's sacrifice with that of the soldiers at the front (English soldiers, of course), an alignment which would quell all doubts concerning sin and damnation which the thought of killing might produce and would, in addition, offer the consolation of martyrdom to those men.

3) Whitmell seems to bemoan the fact (as she sees it) that Englishmen had forgotten God before the war, but seems in some way happy now that they have found him again when doing God's work in the trenches? But isn't war totally against Christ's teachings, isn't going to war a far greater sin in Christ's eyes than forgetting him? Is she suggesting that her English God was feeling neglected so brought about the war as a means to gain attention, like some spoilt child? I don't think she is suggesting this, I don't think this notion ever occurred to her - I don't think that she could see the paradox that her poem creates.

4) This poem is written from a wholly hypothetical point of view - Whitmell was not serving in the trenches. Indeed, one of the biggest complaints from the men at the front, especially as the war dragged on, was that those at home didn't understand at all what life at the front was really like. And because she'd no real idea about what was happening in the trenches, she seems to have taken the same stance as most of the of the other home poets of the time (pre-Somme) did i.e. a wholly patriotic and somewhat high-minded, almost fantasy, view of events.

The Somme was a watershed in the war, not just at the front itself but, to an extent, at home as well, and this was reflected in the poetry of the time. I will see if I can dig out any later work by Whitmell, to see if she became, as some did at home (and many did at the front), a more questioning poet as the war dragged on.

In an earlier post I gave a link to another thread, here it is again: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113525 In the very first post of this thread there's a piece (not a poem) written by a soldier serving at the front not too long after Whitmell wrote this poem - both are pre-Somme, and his thoughts at the front make a highly interesting comparison with those of Whitmell at home.

Cheers-salesie.

[CarylW]

Are there any examples of German soldiers' prayers and psalms, and/or photographs of German field services (or of Boer entreaties to their God)? They would be really interesting to see; after all, I believe that the German standard issue belt-buckle carried the words Gott mit uns (God with us) on it?

A comparison between German and Allied military prayers and religious services in the field would be a fascinating topic - two sides trying their damndest to kill as many of their enemies as quickly as possible, with both sides trying their best to curry favour with God and claim their cause to be divine? Or was it a truly Christian crusade by the Allies against the Godless Germans (and/or Boers)?...........snipped......

Cheers-salesie.

Not exactly what was asked for but found this::

Another postcard of the Kaiser, with a prayer in German

Here

German postcard of children praying for soldiers

Here

Caryl

[centurion]

German monks were impressed into the army - not as men of religion but as fighting soldiers. The Germans did not recognise the concept of conscientious objection. I can't remember if it was in this forum or in Landships but a historian of one of the German monastic orders posted about the fate of some such monks.

[salesie]

Not exactly what was asked for but found this::

Another postcard of the Kaiser, with a prayer in German

Here

German postcard of children praying for soldiers

Here

Caryl

Thanks for the photo and links, Caryl.

The photo actually looks like Emperor Franz Joseph (Austria) not Kaiser Bill - even so, I think it's pretty clear that all sides earnestly hoped that God was on their side, and carried out their respective rituals with even greater zeal than usual to try and ensure that their side alone (or as an individual) gained God's favour. All of which goes to show just how much religion, any religion, was/is manipulated by mankind - shows how religion was/is twisted and warped to fit a certain set of circumstances even when those circumstances, such as war, go against the fundamental principles of their so-called religious beliefs. Note I said so-called beliefs, because surely no one can truly believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ and then argue that any war is a just war on religious grounds, let alone claim God's approval and one-sided support?

Perhaps the photograph of Franz Joseph is evidence for Freud's ideas vis-a-vis the reasons for mankind’s religious beliefs i.e. Freud explains that we make God into a father-figure because we have been in this state of helplessness before, as children, when our relationships are characterised by the same fear but also admiration and a sense of protection. When we grow up and find that we are destined, in a sense, to remain children forever and are unprotected against the world, we invest that world with the traits of the father-figure, we create for ourselves the gods, whom we seek to propitiate or influence, and to whom we entrust the task of protecting us. Freud stresses that these are ‘illusions, fulfilment’s of the oldest, strongest, and most insistent wishes of mankind; the secret of their strength is the strength of these wishes’.

In the photo, Franz Joseph must be in his mid-eighties (he died in 1916 aged 86) - if the caption underneath is an accurate description of the old-man's prayer, is this photograph, in a Freudian sense, a picture of a young boy in an old man's body, a young boy who in essence is telling his father a pack of half-truths and lies in the hope of avoiding punishment for wrong-doing (as many a young boy has done throughout history)? Or, are both the photograph and caption designed for public consumption only - if so, what is Franz Joseph actually "saying" to what he purports to believe is his maker?

Cheers-salesie.

[salesie]

German monks were impressed into the army - not as men of religion but as fighting soldiers. The Germans did not recognise the concept of conscientious objection. I can't remember if it was in this forum or in Landships but a historian of one of the German monastic orders posted about the fate of some such monks.

Can you remember how the historian reported the German monks fate, Centurion? After all, even though Britain recognised the concept of conscientious objection, it has to be said that the "fate" of some Britons adopting such a stance is hardly worthy of praise.

Cheers-salesie.

[centurion]

Can you remember how the historian reported the German monks fate, Centurion? After all, even though Britain recognised the concept of conscientious objection, it has to be said that the "fate" of some Britons adopting such a stance is hardly worthy of praise.

Germany had no tribunals so any one failing to turn up when ordered was arrested, tried and went to jail under harsh conditions after a while this approach changed as it was assumed that anyone anyone disobeying the order to report themselves was mad and so they were arrested and taken direct to a mental institution where the doctor in charge certified them insane (apparently it was an offence not to). As for the monks jail or asylum (often indistinguishable) was the fate of some, many served and quite a number were killed.

[salesie]

Germany had no tribunals so any one failing to turn up when ordered was arrested, tried and went to jail under harsh conditions after a while this approach changed as it was assumed that anyone anyone disobeying the order to report themselves was mad and so they were arrested and taken direct to a mental institution where the doctor in charge certified them insane (apparently it was an offence not to). As for the monks jail or asylum (often indistinguishable) was the fate of some, many served and quite a number were killed.

Thanks for that, Centurion. It seems that these German monks were very harshly treated indeed, and it's hard to imagine a British tribunal treating in such a way men who had actually taken holy orders.

But, that said, some British conscientious objectors did suffer harsh treatment at the hands of the State; the majority who went in front of a tribunal were "sentenced" to non-combatant roles in the army and/or to para-civilian "labour camps" at home, but a few were sent to prison for refusing to assist the war effort in any way at all (some were continually re-sentenced to two-months imprisonment by the military authorities, similar to the cat-and-mouse tactics certain suffragettes had suffered) but some thirty-five men were actually sentenced to death by courts-martial (though these sentences were immediately commuted to ten years imprisonment, and further commuted in 1919 when all were released).

Vociferous public groups in Britain, and certain MPs from all sides of the house, seem to have successfully tempered the harshness of the treatment of conscientious objectors in Britain (though by today's standards even this tempered treatment could be seen as extremely harsh).

The biggest problem though was that many British conscientious objectors did not base their objection wholly on religious grounds - for many it was a secular moral objection and/or they took a political stance. Here's the text of a leaflet produced by one such grouping (The No-Conscription Fellowship):

:

"Repeal the Act

Fellow citizens: Conscription is now law in this country of free traditions. Our hard-won liberties have been violated. Conscription means the desecration of principles that we have long held dear; it involves the subordination of civil liberties to military dictation; it imperils the freedom of individual conscience and establishes in our midst that militarism which menaces all social graces and divides the peoples of all nations.

We re-affirm our determined resistance to all that is established by the Act.

We cannot assist in warfare. War, which to us is wrong. War, which the peoples do not seek, will only be made impossible when men, who so believe, remain steadfast to their convictions. Conscience, it is true, has been recognised in the Act, but it has been placed at the mercy of tribunals. We are prepared to answer for our faith before any tribunal, but we cannot accept any exemption that would compel those who hate war to kill by proxy or set them to tasks which would help in the furtherance of war.

We strongly condemn the monstrous assumption by Parliament that a man is deemed to be bound by an oath that he has never taken and forced under an authority he will never acknowledge to perform acts which outrage his deepest convictions.

It is true that the present act applies only to a small section of the community, but a great tradition has been sacrificed. Already there is a clamour for an extension of the act. Admit the principle, and who can stay the march of militarism?

Repeal the Act. That is your only safeguard.

If this be not done, militarism will fasten its iron grip upon our national life and institutions. There will be imposed upon us the very system which statesmen affirm that they set out to overthrow.

What shall it profit the nation if it shall win the war and lose its own soul?"

There are subtle allusions to religious faith in this text, but in my opinion it portrays an overtly political stance. And, furthermore, it is a political stance that was wholly wrong in its predictions i.e. Britain did not become a military state - indeed, after the war, Britain actually became more democratic than it had been before. So, given that not all conscientious objection in Britain was based on religion, could it not be argued that conscription tribunals were an essential tool in aiding a democratic state’s security in a time of war?

Now, back to the main theme of this thread "Prayers before Battle" - would the text of this leaflet qualify as such a prayer i.e. is this quoted text a prayer based on faith (political faith); a prayer proclaimed when in battle with one's own government? And, perhaps more importantly, does the example of the treatment of German monks in comparison to Britain's approach highlight important differences which religious entreaties to God (by all sides) doesn't?

Cheers-salesie.