Ivor Lee Posted 2 June , 2004 Share Posted 2 June , 2004 Can any of our Australian experts help with information/war diary entry for the 53rd Battalion on 2 August 1916. A friend had a relative (Pte Phillip Joseph Foulser) kia on this day and I would like to be able to give him more information. Many thanks Ivor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryb95 Posted 2 June , 2004 Share Posted 2 June , 2004 This link is to the AWM also click on the icon for information circular which will give his history http://www.awm.gov.au/database/roh.asp Terry Barrett West Aust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryb95 Posted 2 June , 2004 Share Posted 2 June , 2004 And this is a brief history of the Bn http://www.awm.gov.au/units/unit_11240.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryb95 Posted 2 June , 2004 Share Posted 2 June , 2004 Digital copies from his file held at the national Archives Australia http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.asp?B=4023652&I=1 wish the Brits could do this Terry Barrett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedog Posted 2 June , 2004 Share Posted 2 June , 2004 Ivor Pte. Phillip Joseph FOULSER No. 3530/A 5th. Australian Div. 14th. brigade 53rd Battalion Date of Death 02/08/ 1916 Remembered on the Villers-Bretonneux Memorial No Next of Kin listed Enlisted Sydney, N.S.W. The 53rd was involved in the Fromelles disaster 19th-20 July 1916 and when the remnants regrouped they stayed in the area for some time after the battle, so it is possible that he was KIA in an incident [shelling perhaps] For a Unit History see the "Whale Oil Guards" their C.O. got them to wipe their helmets with the whale oil issued for trench feet so that they looked smart on parade. Thats all I can find at the moment, hope that it helps Bluedog Port kembla Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Lee Posted 2 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 2 June , 2004 Terry, Bluedog Thanks for the help it is great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 2 June , 2004 Share Posted 2 June , 2004 Ivor, The Red Cross files for the AIF are also held on the AWM site in Biographical Databases. I am at work and cannot search from here but they are worth a look. If there is a file there for him it will list how he died according to eyewitnesses. Regards Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 3 June , 2004 Share Posted 3 June , 2004 John Joseph Kennedy wrote the 53rd Bn history 'The Whale Oil Guards' and it was published in Dublin in 1919. Kennedy was a priest assigned to the 53rd Bn. I have the 5th Division history at home so I'll check to see if it mentions anything taking place on that date. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Lee Posted 3 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 3 June , 2004 Tim Many thanks I will follow up your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Lee Posted 3 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 3 June , 2004 Andrew Thanks for the offer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Underwood Posted 3 June , 2004 Share Posted 3 June , 2004 Is their some mystery here? He is listed in the Red Cross archives as having gone 'missing' on 19-7-16 at the charge of Fleur-Bair? (have I got that spelling right - see below). I've downloaded the PDF and pasted up some of the reports below. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 3 June , 2004 Share Posted 3 June , 2004 Mystery indeed....but a simple explanation (see the related post under 'Soldiers') and some fixing to do. I am sure the Australian War Memorial can look at the possibility of changing his date of death on the Roll of Honour. I don't know about the CWGC but would guess there is enough evidence to suggest he was KIA on the 19th July and not the 2nd August. Regards Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Lee Posted 3 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 3 June , 2004 Thanks guys for the comments. I will pass on this information to his relatives and contact AWM and CWGC on their behalf. Will let you know the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 3 June , 2004 Share Posted 3 June , 2004 Ivor On past experience, I think that you will find AWM very helpful. Try writing direct to Major Kerry Hodge [Kerry.Hodge@dva.gov.au] (Dept Veteren Affairs) Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dinkidi Posted 3 June , 2004 Share Posted 3 June , 2004 G'day Ivor Have you "searched" the AWM Collections Database for photo's etc of the 53rd &/or Fromelles? One aspect of this battle has intrigued me. The participating soldiers seemed to refer to it as Fleur Baix [as per above Red Cross statement] whilst officialdom records it almost exclusively as Fromelles. There is 1 Fleur Baix reference on the AWM site & 175 Fromelles. It would be preferable for the actual date to be recorded for each casualty, but on searching through WW1 records I am constantly amazed at the detail that was so painstakingly recorded. Given the sheer numbers of casualties in this particular battle, the other pressing matters needed to keep a battalion in the field, & even the primitive typewriters available, the results are pretty good. Although there does seem to have been an error made in this instance, it should be recognised that the Red Cross statement was not made until some 9 months after the event, and the soldier's personal file would have probably been archived by then. Good Luck Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 3 June , 2004 Share Posted 3 June , 2004 No arguments from me that the AIF generally kept fantastic records. If it were not for this a small error such as this made many years ago may never have come to light. However the system used was sometimes confusing and I have seen this sort of error on a couple of occasions during the past. Unfortunately, due to the number of casualties and difficulties in locating eyewitnesses, the system inevitably failed at times.....which is a great pity for the relatives of the soldier concerned. The magnitude of the initial task confronting those keeping records may be outlined by looking at the cost of the Fromelles operation. The main AIF Battalions involved suffered the following casualties: 32nd Battalion 17 officers 701 men 31st Battalion 16 officers 528 men 54th Battalion 19 officers 521 men 53rd Battalion 24 officers 601 men 60th Battalion 16 officers 741 men 59th Battalion 20 officers 675 men Regards Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Lee Posted 3 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 3 June , 2004 Pat I will take up your suggestion about the AWM's photographic collection. Unfortunately I have had little experience of searching for Australian records so all the suggestions are very helpful. As many forum members know my main interest is in the Labour Corps and very few Australians served in the Corps. If only the British records were as easy to access as the Australian ones! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Lee Posted 3 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 3 June , 2004 Andy Thanks, I have sent Major Hodge an e-mail about the discrepancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Lee Posted 3 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 3 June , 2004 Tim With casualty figures like these it is easy to see how an error could have occurred. Once again many thanks for all your help. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 3 June , 2004 Share Posted 3 June , 2004 No problems Ivor, Don't know if you have looked at the official history. There is an excellent account of the battle in the official history which clearly explains the role of the 53rd as one of the assaulting battalions on the 19th July. You can read it here in Volume III. http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/index.asp The account of the battle starts at Page 329. The account of the 19th July on Page 350 and is very detailed. Regards TD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dinkidi Posted 3 June , 2004 Share Posted 3 June , 2004 Ivor When you get onto the AWM site, search the Collections Data Base under "Labour" There are over 100 references there, and you never know your luck. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevenbec Posted 4 June , 2004 Share Posted 4 June , 2004 Also Mate, There is a very detailed book on this battle by the 5th Aust Div. It goes into the full story of the attack and covers all actions and units during that time. Its called "Don't Forget me, Cobber" The battle of Fromelles 19/20 July 1916 an Inquiry. by Robin S. Cornfield - ISBN 1-876586-18-4. Hope you find what you need. S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Lee Posted 4 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 4 June , 2004 Tim Perhaps someone will point out to the British Governement what the Australians have made available online! If only we had similar resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Lee Posted 4 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 4 June , 2004 Pat, Thanks for the advice. Am going to the site once I finish on the Forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Lee Posted 4 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 4 June , 2004 Steve Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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