Lancers - 1916

[anita_isaacs@hotmail.com]

I posted a photo of my grandfather here in May asking for identification of the regiment to which he belonged, and thank SteveE, Steven Broomfield, staffsyeoman and roughdiamond for their replies. The conclusion was that he belonged to the ASC and that it was a postwar picture.

I have some additional news. My uncle tells me that, on the reverse of the original photograph, it says "Lancers - 1916". Does this give any further clue?

[Liam]

Hi Anita,

He was probably attached to a lancer regiment whilst with the ASC which the picture suggests

I know that is stating the obvious but other than that I can't really add anything

Liam

[headgardener]

I'd agree that it's ASC, and that the collar badges are consistent with the period according to the inscription on the back. I know that it's extremely unusual to see these collar badges, but I have a couple of wartime pictures of ASC men wearing them, including one which is signed and dated 1916.

But I can't explain the reference to 'Lancers' other than to suggest that he might have transferred to a Lancers regiment in 1916, or was attached to them in some way as suggested in the last post on this thread.

Do you have any service details for him?

[anita_isaacs@hotmail.com]

No, I'm afraid I don't. This is all I have to go on. His name was Aaron or Harry Isaacs and there is a Harry Isaacs in the Medal Rolls Index who was in the ASC. It seems to be the general consensus that that was his regiment. I couldn't find any men of the same name in, for example, the Queen's Dragoon Guards, which was suggested by the National Army Museum. They also thought maybe, the Middlesex Yeomanry but other people have ruled these out.

Does place of enlistment help at all? His brother, Jack, joined the Essex Regiment at Stratford and they lived in Hackney. He was in the battle of Ypres, presumably the second, was gassed and taken prisoner of war.

Do newspapers ever note about returned WW1 soldiers arriving back at English ports? I know he came back to Hull either in 1918 or 1919.

I'd agree that it's ASC, and that the collar badges are consistent with the period according to the inscription on the back. I know that it's extremely unusual to see these collar badges, but I have a couple of wartime pictures of ASC men wearing them, including one which is signed and dated 1916.

But I can't explain the reference to 'Lancers' other than to suggest that he might have transferred to a Lancers regiment in 1916, or was attached to them in some way as suggested in the last post on this thread.

Do you have any service details for him?

[Peter Doyle]

This uniform is also the 'simplified pattern' of 1915–16, which places it in the right time bracket. The collar badges are unusual.

Peter

[tony paley]

Anita,

Strange that the Nat.Army Museum suggested Queens Dragoon Gds. This Regiment didn't come into existance until the late 60s as a result of an amalgamation of the KINGS Dragoon Guards and the Queens Bays. I would go with ASC attached to a Cavalry Unit. The 'Nickname' of the ASC was Aly Slopers Cavalry, just a thought might have been a little joke.

Tony P

[headgardener]

His name was Aaron or Harry Isaacs........... They also thought maybe, the Middlesex Yeomanry but other people have ruled these out.

Does place of enlistment help at all? His brother, Jack, joined the Essex Regiment at Stratford and they lived in Hackney. He was in the battle of Ypres, presumably the second, was gassed and taken prisoner of war.

Do newspapers ever note about returned WW1 soldiers arriving back at English ports? I know he came back to Hull either in 1918 or 1919.

OK, local papers do sometimes carry items on returning POW's. I believe that Hull was a common place for returned POW's to land (the ships would be coming from ports on the German North Sea coast or the Baltic, so Hull would make sense). Considering this, it may be unlikely that Hull papers would carry very detailed reports on POW's landing. Much more likely that a man's local paper would carry a report, but probably not if your man came from London and was 1 of several hundred returnees in that particular borough. Though, who knows?

Does place of enlistment help? Not likely in this case.

What exactly do you know about him? You say that his name was Aaron or Harry. There's several possibilities and combinations with these names. I looked up the original thread that you posted and there are a few things that you mention, about him being captured on the western front, etc. Could you just give us a quick re-cap on what you know and we'll see where we go from there....?

And the Middlesex Yeo badge is a star shape, but it's slightly different to the ASC one. He's ASC, I'm certain of it.

Edit; doesn't mean he was serving with the ASC when he was captured. Doesn't necessarily mean that ASC would be listed on his MIC.....

[max7474]

This uniform is also the 'simplified pattern' of 1915–16, which places it in the right time bracket. The collar badges are unusual.

Peter

Peter.

Their error might have been mixing QDG up with KDG. The KDG cap badge in 1915 was a star design.

[Peter Doyle]

Peter.

Their error might have been mixing QDG up with KDG. The KDG cap badge in 1915 was a star design.

Sounds plausible!

P.

[anita_isaacs@hotmail.com]

I don't know much I'm afraid. By the way, it was my mistake - the NAM did say King's Dragoon Guards or Middlesex Imperial Yeomanry but they pointed out that the photograph was not clear enough to make a definite identification. Does anyone have a photo of the ASC badge at that time?

To recap, I only have the picture to go on with 1916 - Lancers written on it. I knew he was in the cavalry but nothing else apart from him being gassed at Ypres (I don't actually know which battle but presume it was the second), but as far as I know not having lasting effects so probably not in receipt of any pension which I also checked the records for, and being taken PoW, disembarking in Hull after the war where he met my grandmother. They married in December 1919, so I don't know exactly when he was repatriated. I could try the Red Cross but it is very expensive to search for WW1 PoWs and I don't have his regimental details.

To recap what I have done: I have tried the Electoral Rolls for South Hackney (he lived at 29 Durrington Road, Clapton) and he is shown on the 1918 electoral roll as Absent in the armed forces next to his name. There is no Absent Voters List for this area for 1918 or at least it doesn't survive. There is one for Stoke Newington held by Hackney Archives but that's all. I could try for the 1919 Absent Voters List, if there is one for S Hackney, but I think not.

Looking through some badge photos myself, and not being an expert, I thought it looked rather like the East Surrey Regiment badge and there is an A Isaacs 32428 Acting Sergeant (unlikely for my grandfather!) in this regiment in the MIC who was formerly in the 8th Reserve Cavalry Regiment. He is just shown as being mentioned in dispatches (no mention of campaign medals) in the London Gazette, P. 946 on 25 January 1917, which I checked and it doesn't yield any more information. I wrote to the Surrey History Centre and they confirmed that the East Surrey was a foot regiment and that it was formerly the 31st and 70th regiments.

I wrote to the Imperial War Museum about the 8th Reserve Cavalry Regiment and they told me it was based at the Curragh in Ireland and was affiliated to the 16th and 17th Lancers, the latter being known as the Duke of Cambridge's Own. In early 1917 these were absorbed into the 1st Reserve Cavalry Regiment. They also told me that the Middlesex Yeomanry served in the Middle East in the war so that ruled them out.

The only other thing I haven't done is search the actual Medal Rolls at the National Archives. Do you think that may help? I did search all the MICs for the name in the hope of finding the address on the reverse, but with no luck.

If he was, as everyone seems to think, in the ASC (rather disappointing!) would he have been in cavalry uniform? I presume he would have perhaps been on a horse-drawn carriage taking supplies to the front?

Any other thoughts greatly appreciated and thanks for everybody's help so far.

Anita

OK, local papers do sometimes carry items on returning POW's. I believe that Hull was a common place for returned POW's to land (the ships would be coming from ports on the German North Sea coast or the Baltic, so Hull would make sense). Considering this, it may be unlikely that Hull papers would carry very detailed reports on POW's landing. Much more likely that a man's local paper would carry a report, but probably not if your man came from London and was 1 of several hundred returnees in that particular borough. Though, who knows?

Does place of enlistment help? Not likely in this case.

What exactly do you know about him? You say that his name was Aaron or Harry. There's several possibilities and combinations with these names. I looked up the original thread that you posted and there are a few things that you mention, about him being captured on the western front, etc. Could you just give us a quick re-cap on what you know and we'll see where we go from there....?

And the Middlesex Yeo badge is a star shape, but it's slightly different to the ASC one. He's ASC, I'm certain of it.

Edit; doesn't mean he was serving with the ASC when he was captured. Doesn't necessarily mean that ASC would be listed on his MIC.....

[max7474]

The collars are the key - get a picture of KDG collars and compare them and it might rule them out.

It is not East Surreys as they had a scroll at the bottom of the badge.

[headgardener]

Well, that gives us something to get our teeth into. 2nd Ypres was in early 1915. Maybe it was a later engagement?

He disembarked at Hull after the end of the war and met your grandmother there, and they married in Dec 1919. If he was repatriated after the end of the war he would have landed in Hull in late November AT THE EARLIEST, more likely in early December. So it must have been a whirlwind romance! Are you certain about the dates? Maybe he was repatriated before the end of the war, but that's less likely to be via Hull, and it would be likely that he would have been awarded a Silver War Badge (to be repatriated during the war he'd have to be largely unfit for active service).

As for the cap badge, trust me when I say it's not Middx Yeo or E. Surrey. It very much looks like ASC, and that is matched by the collars (see my earlier post) though I wouldn't rule out KDG or N. Somerset Yeo. Neither ASC, KDG or N. Somerset Yeo are Lancers regts.

Regarding his uniform, he's wearing jodhpurs and spurs, so he's clearly a rider of some kind.

What about his name? What name(s) do you have for him? Particularly, what's on his birth certificate? Sounds like he definately served overseas, so he should have generated an MIC, so lets try to find that. Looks like the answer to this is not so simple, so we need as much info as we can regarding his name. And remember that the unit that he's with in this photo is not necessarily the unit that he served overseas with.

Oh, and Durrington Rd is about 10 minutes walk from where I'm sitting right now.....

Edit; what names are given on the voters list?

[anita_isaacs@hotmail.com]

His name was Aaron Isaacs (funnily enough he's C of E, though his father was Jewish) and that's how he's shown on the electoral roll. No middle name on either birth certificate or baptism record. He was known by the family as "Harry".

When you say he would have come back in November or December, I presume you mean 1918? or could it have been 1919? He definitely talked about "Wipers" but, come to think of it, I'm not sure if that's where he actually got taken PoW.

Fancy you living near Durrington Road. I knew it still existed because I found it on a London A-Z - does the original housing? The family lived there at least from 1911 to 1939, possibly from earlier.

I said "repatriated" when I just meant came back from the war.

Well, that gives us something to get our teeth into. 2nd Ypres was in early 1915. Maybe it was a later engagement?

He disembarked at Hull after the end of the war and met your grandmother there, and they married in Dec 1919. If he was repatriated after the end of the war he would have landed in Hull in late November AT THE EARLIEST, more likely in early December. So it must have been a whirlwind romance! Are you certain about the dates? Maybe he was repatriated before the end of the war, but that's less likely to be via Hull, and it would be likely that he would have been awarded a Silver War Badge (to be repatriated he'd have to be largely unfit for active service).

As for the cap badge, trust me when I say it's not Middx Yeo or E. Surrey. It very much looks like ASC, and that is matched by the collars (see my earlier post) though I wouldn't rule out KDG or N. Somerset Yeo. Neither ASC, KDG or N. Somerset Yeo are Lancers regts.

Regarding his uniform, he's wearing jodhpurs and spurs, so he's clearly a rider of some kind.

What about his name? What name(s) do you have for him? Particularly, what's on his birth certificate? Sounds like he definately served overseas, so he should have generated an MIC, so lets try to find that. Looks like the answer to this is not so simple, so we need as much info as we can regarding his name. And remember that the unit that he's with in this photo is not necessarily the unit that he served overseas with.

Oh, and Durrington Rd is about 10 minutes walk from where I'm sitting right now.....

Edit; what names are given on the voters list?

[headgardener]

When you say he would have come back in November or December, I presume you mean 1918? or could it have been 1919?

I said "repatriated" when I just meant came back from the war.

Doh! Yes, you wrote 1919, I read 1918. Sorry, my mistake. Repatriated is the right word, whenever it was that he returned.

As for Durrington Rd, I know where it is (just the other side of Homerton Hospital, I had a quick look on my A-Z because I recognised the name) but I can't visualize the houses; I think that they're all new builds, will take a stroll along there and have a look, but can't do it tonight I'm afraid.

Have you checked with the British Library to see whether they have an Absent Voters List? And what about London Metropolitan Archives? They also have a reasonable selection of AVL's, if my memory serves me right. If there was an AVL at either of those sites it would save us a lot of head-scratching. I've just had a quick look for various permutations of his names, including the surname 'Isaac' as well as 'Isaacs' under 'cavalry', 'lancers' and 'yeomany', but no real likely candidates jumped off the screen at me. Will take a better look later this evening.

Another thought; just because he was C of E it's possible that his family could have had him included in the British Jewry Roll of Honour. Might be worth a check, though I imagine that there must have been several 'A. Isaacs' (I seem to remember that the BJ RoH has initials only for non-casualties).

Very quickly, regarding his cap badges, the crown on the top of the KDG cap badge tends to stand out much more than the crown on the top of an ASC or N. Somerset Yeo badge. The N. Som. Yeo badge also looks a bit smaller than the other 2. This really does look like an ASC badge, and the collars do match this (though it is very uncommon to see them on uniforms of this period - I would have imagined post-war if I didn't have 2 similar pictures myself).

Edit; either way there don't appear to be any MIC's that match this name with any of these units, so we'll have to have a closer look at this one. Try to see if those other 2 institutions have an AVL if you haven't already tried. I'll give the MIC's some further thought. Any other suggestions welcome........

[anita_isaacs@hotmail.com]

I looked for both the 1918 and 1919 Absent Voters Lists for South Hackney and neither the British Library nor the LMA had them. Hackney Archives just had the 1918 Electoral Roll and they confirmed that there was no Absent Voters list attached to it - I had read they could be appended to the electoral voters' list.

Thank you very much for saying you'll take a look at the road - not if it's too much trouble or out of your way. I expect it's all newbuilds, as you think.

I don't think the Jewish Roll of Honour will be much use. His brother, Jack, died at Guillemont on 30/7/1916 and the Essex Regimental Museum showed surprise when they checked it and he was not included. I think their father cut all ties with his community when he married a Christian. Jack received the British and Victory medals posthumously so he can't have served in 1914-15. I wonder if they joined up at the same time, in 1916 when all men between 18 - 41 were conscripted? I don't know for sure that my grandfather joined up in 1916, it could have been earlier.

Regarding the photo, I presumed he might have had it taken before he went off to France - hence 1916 would be the date he enlisted. I think many men did have a photographic record taken before they went abroad, understandably. I also wonder why he put "Lancers" on the back (if indeed he did write it himself). Perhaps he embellished his service?! Or perhaps he joined a Lancers regiment later or was attached to one?

Is it worth looking up the Medal Rolls or do you need a service number to do this?

Doh! Yes, you wrote 1919, I read 1918. Sorry, my mistake. Repatriated is the right word, whenever it was that he returned.

As for Durrington Rd, I know where it is (just the other side of Homerton Hospital, I had a quick look on my A-Z because I recognised the name) but I can't visualize the houses; I think that they're all new builds, will take a stroll along there and have a look, but can't do it tonight I'm afraid.

Have you checked with the British Library to see whether they have an Absent Voters List? And what about London Metropolitan Archives? They also have a reasonable selection of AVL's, if my memory serves me right. If there was an AVL at either of those sites it would save us a lot of head-scratching. I've just had a quick look for various permutations of his names, including the surname 'Isaac' as well as 'Isaacs' under 'cavalry', 'lancers' and 'yeomany', but no real likely candidates jumped off the screen at me. Will take a better look later this evening.

Another thought; just because he was C of E it's possible that his family could have had him included in the British Jewry Roll of Honour. Might be worth a check, though I imagine that there must have been several 'A. Isaacs' (I seem to remember that the BJ RoH has initials only for non-casualties).

Very quickly, regarding his cap badges, the crown on the top of the KDG cap badge tends to stand out much more than the crown on the top of an ASC or N. Somerset Yeo badge. The N. Som. Yeo badge also looks a bit smaller than the other 2. This really does look like an ASC badge, and the collars do match this (though it is very uncommon to see them on uniforms of this period - I would have imagined post-war if I didn't have 2 similar pictures myself).

Edit; either way there don't appear to be any MIC's that match this name with any of these units, so we'll have to have a closer look at this one. Try to see if those other 2 institutions have an AVL if you haven't already tried. I'll give the MIC's some further thought. Any other suggestions welcome........

[headgardener]

Regarding the photo, I presumed he might have had it taken before he went off to France - hence 1916 would be the date he enlisted. I think many men did have a photographic record taken before they went abroad, understandably. I also wonder why he put "Lancers" on the back (if indeed he did write it himself). Perhaps he embellished his service?! Or perhaps he joined a Lancers regiment later or was attached to one?

Is it worth looking up the Medal Rolls or do you need a service number to do this?

Men had photos taken at all sorts of times, so any theories about why he had this one taken is just speculation.

Several possibilities as to why he wrote Lancers on the back; he may have served with them, he may have been attached to them, it may have been a joke, it may have been written by someone else.

As for the medal rolls, let's find his MIC first! We can't look up the rolls without an MIC reference! (the MIC's act as the index to the rolls). Will have a trawl later or tomorrow.

[headgardener]

By the way, I've just re-read your original post; you say that your uncle tells you that it has 'Lancers' written on the back - how certain is he of that? Take a look at how much discussion there is on this forum regarding the interpretation of old writing. Could your uncle possibly scan the reverse and get it posted here? Probably he's right, but maybe he's not..........

Could even be a place name.....

[anita_isaacs@hotmail.com]

Yes, I'll ask him to scan it for me and also tell me whose writing it is. Someone could have put it on at a later date.

I have also emailed the Hull City Archives on the offchance that there may be something about returning soldiers in their local papers - just to ask them whether there were those sort of articles in the late 1918/1919 papers. If so, I may ask for some research.

Can you tell me what extra information there might be in the Medal Rolls? There is a Harry Isaacs belonging to the ASC in the MIC -Reg No M2/264959. He received the Victory and the British Medals, no other information. I could check that at the National Archives.

[headgardener]

I've had a hunt through the MIC's on the NA website.

I haven't checked the MIC's on Ancestry; in the past I have found (actually it was 'The Inspector' who found it) an MIC on Ancestry which is missing from the NA's website, so it's likely that the NA website might be very slightly incomplete.

Anyway, I searched first for Aaron Isaacs. I used a 'wildcard' search in order to uncover alternative spelling (Aarun, Issacks, Isaacson, etc). I found;

Aaron Isaacs, serving with a Jewish battalion of the Royal Fusiliers

Aaron Isaacs, serving with the RE's

George Aaron Isaacs, serving with the London Rgt.

I searched for A. Isaacs (same wildcard for the surname). I found men serving with;

Rifle Brigade, Somerset Light Infantry (Sgt), East Surreys, formerly Reserve Cavalry Rgt (a/Sgt) - this man also shows up under the name Arthur Isaac (not Isaacs), plus several men serving with the Cape Coloured Labour Rgt and the Indian Defence Forces

I also found A.S. Isaacs serving with the RE

I also found several men with 'A' as their middle initial. There were no Harry A. Isaacs, or Henry A. Isaacs.

I searched for Isaacs (again doing a wildcard search) serving with 'Lancers'. I only found Ernest J. Isaacson.

I did the same search for Isaacs serving with 'Dragoons', I only found Edwin T Isaacs and Jack Isaacs.

I did the same search for 'Cavalry'. I found Samuel Isaacs (Reserve Rgt of Cavalry) and William Isaacs (Co of London Yeo & MGC Cavalry).

I searched for Harry Isaacs in the ASC. I found;

Harry Isaacs (M2/264959)

Harry H. Isaacs (M/271928)

Harris Isaacs (Labour Cps ex R.West Surreys)

I searched for Henry Isaacs in the ASC, and found 4698, also served in labour Cps.

I looked for H. Isaacs in the ASC, and found H. Isaacs, 16744.

I also tried searching for Aaron, A. Harry, H, Henry, etc Isaac (not Isaacs) in the ASC. I found;

H. Isaac S4/213136 (Cpl/acting Sgt)

Henry Isaac, T/582 (a pre-war territorial number), renumbered as T4/213136 (almost the same as the man above - must be the same)

Henry Isaac, 2179, trans to Labour Cps.

Henry Isaac, T/261966

Henry Isaac, Lt & Capt

Henry James Isaac, T4/212989.

I also tried under Cavalry, Dragoons, Lancers and Yeomanry, and turned up 2 men called Harry M. Isaac both serving with the R. Devonshire Yeo and Devonshire Rgt.

So, he simply doesn't come up in the right combination of name and unit to match what we have according to your photo.

My suggestions are;

there may be a transcription error on the NA site; could repeat these searches on Ancestry, especially considering that their listings might be slightly different to the NA.

he is one of the men listed above - there are about 3 or 4 reasonable possibilities. Remember that he could have transferred from the ASC to another regiment, and with a very few exceptions it would only be the regiments that he served with abroad that would be listed on the MIC.

he de-jew-ished his name and enlisted under a different name or surname.

the photo is not your Aaron Isaacs.

Any thoughts?

Try to confirm the writing on the back of the photo.

[anita_isaacs@hotmail.com]

Thank you for doing this very exhaustive search.

I have had a quick look on Ancestry as some of the things you said got me thinking: could it be one of his brothers in the photo, though I can see it as being my grandfather. That said, of course his siblings could look very much like him. Though it would seem strange that this photo was handed down our line.

His brothers were Lewis, born 1885, Charles Henry born 1889, John (Essex Regiment) born 1897-1916 and Alexander born 1899. The last one would have been very young had he gone into the war. I did find a Lewis and an Alexander in the ASC. Lewis I think was in the RASC - I thought this change of name (with the appellation "Royal" happened after the war?) However, no other clues in the Service or Pension records on Ancestry so I couldn't verify that either of these men were from my family. I am trying to contact Alex's descendants so maybe that will turn up something. There is a paucity of photographic material in our family from before the 1930s.

I think you are right and there are about 3 possibles - including the Harry Isaacs and the H Isaacs in the ASC.

Re changing his name, I don't think anyone in our family has ever done that, still, you never know.

I will definitely ask my uncle to scan the reverse of the photo. He is however very stubborn and will insist that what is written on the back, if it is Lancers and he is certain it is, is true!

I have read that the International Red Cross is digitalising its records starting this year and taking up to 2014 to complete so I will then be able to obtain his PoW record.

[headgardener]

His brothers were Lewis, born 1885, Charles Henry born 1889, John (Essex Regiment) born 1897-1916 and Alexander born 1899. The last one would have been very young had he gone into the war. I did find a Lewis and an Alexander in the ASC. Lewis I think was in the RASC - I thought this change of name (with the appellation "Royal" happened after the war?)

I think you are right and there are about 3 possibles - including the Harry Isaacs and the H Isaacs in the ASC.

Re changing his name, I don't think anyone in our family has ever done that, still, you never know.

I got a bit carried away with this one. Once I start, and turn up a couple of possibilities, my instinct is to try to rule out any other possibilities, but in this case there was a lot of latitude for interpreting the information that we have, so I kept on turning up more possibilities, and once I've started......

Don't dismiss the Aaron Isaacs in the RE; I'd say he's a very likely candidate (a surprisingly uncommon name so it seems).

Alexander wasn't too young to have gone to war. The ASC became the RASC during 1918. The terms 'RASC' and 'ASC' are used fairly interchangeably on the MIC's; the fact that an MIC says RASC doesn't mean too much. And don't get too hung up on the whole ASC thing anyway; the only regiments that are likely to show up on his MIC are the ones that he served abroad with, and that wouldn't necessarily be the regiment that he's photographed with in England.

As for changing his name, there are several plausible reasons why a man might change his name to something quite different when he joined the army. Your man already used a different name (Harry) within his family, so what's to stop him wanting to lose the surname too (albeit temporarily)?

Have you checked the POW interview series in (I think) WO161? There may be an interview with him or a reference to him.

[anita_isaacs@hotmail.com]

The Aaron Isaacs 136428 in the Royal Engineers is the only one I can actually rule out because he is also in the pension records and is not my grandfather. I found him years ago when I visited TNA and trawled through the microfilm records and this record is now also on Ancestry.

The consensus in the family is that the photo does show my Granddad - it is very much like him. He looked different when older because he had all his teeth out and never got false ones!

Unfortunately, he isn't in the WO161 records on TNA site.

I am a bit confused by what you say about him changing regiments. The man in the photo is wearing ASC insignia and you say that the regiment he was recorded as belonging to on the MIC site would be the regiment he served with abroad. I think you were right in the first place and that it is likely that he did belong to the ASC abroad and that one of these men is indeed him. I read that they had a lot of horsemen in the regiment so again that ties up. If he had later transferred to a Lancers regiment, then there would be an Aaron Isaacs on the MIC in such a regiment. I don't think he can have served with the Lancers at all because we couldn't find anyone of his name in any Lancers regiment. Do you follow my reasoning? I personally wonder if someone else put that on the back of the photo later under a misapprehension! or perhaps he thought it sounded more glamorous in view of the jokes made about the ASC.

[headgardener]

I am a bit confused by what you say about him changing regiments. The man in the photo is wearing ASC insignia and you say that the regiment he was recorded as belonging to on the MIC site would be the regiment he served with abroad. I think you were right in the first place and that it is likely that he did belong to the ASC abroad and that one of these men is indeed him. I read that they had a lot of horsemen in the regiment so again that ties up. If he had later transferred to a Lancers regiment, then there would be an Aaron Isaacs on the MIC in such a regiment. I don't think he can have served with the Lancers at all because we couldn't find anyone of his name in any Lancers regiment. Do you follow my reasoning?

You seem to be assuming that he served overseas with the ASC, but we don't have any hard evidence for that. My point is that your man is wearing ASC uniform in the photo, but he may have transferred to another regiment before serving abroad. So he could be appearing in the MIC's under a unit that we can't yet link him to. He could easily have transferred to an infantry regiment, for example, or another corps, and I thought that I had pretty comprehensively ruled out the possibility that he served overseas with a Lancers regt. At this stage the best we can say is that he MAY have served abroad with the ASC. One of those 13 'Harry Isaacs' serving with a variety of different regiments MAY be him. But one or other of those 2 'A.Isaacs' may be him. Or one of the 3 'H.Isaacs'. There's just no clear candidate.

I think that you're going to find it hard to move on from here without some new info coming to light (like the ICRC records).

Edit; you're right that he's wearing a horseman's uniform, and that there were a lot of horsemen in the ASC, but 2 of those 'Harry Isaacs' in the ASC had 'M' prefixes to their regimental numbers denoting that they were involved in motor transport.

[anita_isaacs@hotmail.com]

Thanks for clarifying for me - I wasn't quite sure what you meant. I don't doubt, however, that he did have overseas service, because he was taken prisoner of war. I suppose you have found that people's war stories were sometimes embellished, but how else did he end up in Hull where my grandmother said she met him off the ship? (She must have been an early "army groupie".)

Is it worth checking the Medal Rolls Index if I go to Kew, for any of the men you have found, using the references on the MIC? What else might I find? Otherwise, I am at a stalemate with my search, apart from checking what it says on the back of the original photo.

You seem to be assuming that he served overseas with the ASC, but we don't have any hard evidence for that. My point is that your man is wearing ASC uniform in the photo, but he may have transferred to another regiment before serving abroad. So he could be appearing in the MIC's under a unit that we can't yet link him to. He could easily have transferred to an infantry regiment, for example, or another corps, and I thought that I had pretty comprehensively ruled out the possibility that he served overseas with a Lancers regt. At this stage the best we can say is that he MAY have served abroad with the ASC. One of those 13 'Harry Isaacs' serving with a variety of different regiments MAY be him. But one or other of those 2 'A.Isaacs' may be him. Or one of the 3 'H.Isaacs'. There's just no clear candidate.

I think that you're going to find it hard to move on from here without some new info coming to light (like the ICRC records).

Edit; you're right that he's wearing a horseman's uniform, and that there were a lot of horsemen in the ASC, but 2 of those 'Harry Isaacs' in the ASC had 'M' prefixes to their regimental numbers denoting that they were involved in motor transport.

[headgardener]

I wasn't doubting that he had overseas service; when I said that he MAY have served overseas with the ASC, it was the ASC part that I was expressing doubt about.

Like I said, you'll find it hard to move on at this point without more info.

Is it worth checking the medal rolls? There isn't usually much more to be gleaned than is already on the MIC. If the man had a middle initial then his middle name will usually (but not always) be listed. If his medals were issued on the medal roll of an infantry regiment then it should list the various battalions he served with overseas. If his medals were issued on the medal roll of the RGA then it should list the last battery that he served with overseas. If his medals were issued on the London regt medal roll then it should list the dates that he served abroad. The 1915 star rolls of some corps units will show the unit that the man went overseas with. But that's about it.

Your man doesn't appear to have had a middle initial, we don't know what unit he served with overseas, so I'd suggest that there's little purpose searching the rolls, except perhaps to see if you can find a name for the couple of 'A.Isaacs' and for the other 'H.Isaacs' (though my experience is that if only an initial is shown for the man's first name on the MIC then generally that's what will be on the medal roll itself - still worth a check though).

My suggestion to you would be to search the CWGC website for those names on that earlier list (there are about 16 or so names that could be him, some more likely than others, some less likely). Some are bound to be casualties, so you can definately cross them off your list of possibles. Remember to check all the units the man served with according to the MIC's as he may have been a casualty with any one of them. Then I'd have a search for service papers for the others, again you'll probably be able to knock a couple of your list (I know you've already checked under the name 'Aaron Isaacs', I'm assuming that you've also checked for 'Harry Isaacs' too). Maybe that way you'll be able to cross one or more of the others off your list. I doubt that this will deliver one clear candidate, but it should narrow the field and would be easy enough to do.

2 other possibilities;

1. You search through the official casualty lists for an 'A.Isaac(s)' who was reported missing, missing presumed killed, missing reported prisoner of war, etc. I've never searched the casualty lists so I simply don't know easy it is to do, but you don't know when he was taken prisoner, so I'm guessing that it's not going to be easy. Can anyone here comment on using the casualty lists? If not, try using the search function here and see what you find.

2. You wait until the ICRC records become available.

Personally, I'd concentrate on his real name/initial, and only move on to 'Harry' once I'd exhausted that avenue of enquiry. Remember also that his name might be transcribed wrongly on the MIC or service records; 'Isaac' rather than 'Isaacs', 'Adam' rather than 'Aaron', etc. Don't forget that he may have used a completely false name, in which case you're sunk. And definately get your uncle(?) to copy the back of the photo. Does anyone have any other details about his wartime service? What about his wedding certificate (he was almost certainly out of the army by Dec 1919, but you never know)? What about local papers (Hull as well as Hackney) regarding his engagement and wedding?