'D' Bty, 190th Bde, RFA

[headgardener]

Does anyone have any information on this unit? I'm particulary interested in the period up to & including October 1915. Had a look on LLT, but couldn't find any reference to it.

I have a death plaque to a man who served with D/190th Bde, RFA. He died in October 1915, buried in the UK, no MIC, so I'm assuming that the unit hadn't served abroad by that time.

His name was Frederick Augustus Blake, just in case anyone asks.

[sotonmate]

hg

Didn't land in France (with 41 Div) until May 1916. 190 (CXC) Brigade RFA formed Sept 1915 joined 41 Div Nov 1915.

The D/Battery would have been one of probably three which made up the Brigade.

Sotonmate

[ianjonesncl]

190 Bde RFA (CXC Brigade) is shown as being part of 41st Division on LLT

"The majority of the units that comprised the Division were originally locally raised ones, primarily from the south of England". I have a note that 190th Brigade were formed in Wimbleton.

"The Division moved to France between 1 and 6 May 1916"

[headgardener]

190 (CXC) Brigade RFA formed Sept 1915 joined 41 Div Nov 1915.

The D/Battery would have been one of probably three which made up the Brigade.

Sotonmate;

Thanks very much for that. Interesting that they only formed in September, and my chap died in October. I'll have to look into that further, I don't yet know anything about the circumstances of his death. You say that 'D' Bty would have been one of probably 3 batteries in the Bde; I realise that this may be a stupid question but how would this have worked? A, B, C.... D?

190 Bde RFA (CXC Brigade) is shown as being part of 41st Division on LLT

"The majority of the units that comprised the Division were originally locally raised ones, primarily from the south of England". I have a note that 190th Brigade were formed in Wimbleton.

ianjonescl;

yes, I did check the relevant LLT page, but only by doing a page search for '190'; I only thought about roman numerals long after I'd posted! Wimbledon would make sense as this chap is buried in a family grave in Hammersmith. Thanks for your advice.

Would either of you (or anyone else, for that matter) know whether there's any other sources regarding the first couple of months of this unit?

[sotonmate]

hg

The LLT states.." Brigade HQ was in command of three Batteries and an Ammunition Column" so whether the Am Col had a designated letter to make up the A-D is a possibility.

Sotonmate

[a8bunnyboy]

On researching my ancestors, I discovered that one signed up with the 190th Brigade in Wimbledon in October 1915.

So here is the information:

My ancestor signed up to the 190th Wimbledon Brigade on the 5th October 1915.

His (Short Service) attestation was signed by: Captain N (?) Shimell 2 East Surrey Regiment

My ancestor was 'approved' on the 11th of October.

He was mustered on 11th January 1916 and posted on the 5th of February

In March 1916, I can confirm that he was in Aldershot.

On the 2nd of March he was charged with 'refusing to obey an order'.

I hope this helps somewhat with the posting requesting information regarding the 190th Wimbledon Brigade.

(A little footnote here: The stamp on the certificate of the approving officer reads: 190th (WIMLEDON) BRIGADE !!

I wonder if anyone can help with the following:

The charge that was made on 2/3/16 appears on my ancestor's records. The column "Cases of Drunkenness" is ticked.

In the column: "Punishment awarded" it states: Today fd(?) Punishment No. 2.In the column "By Whom awarded" it states: Lt Col Stewart Rdg(?)On 3/3/16

My question here would be: Am I right in assuming that this offence was relatively less serious than 'refusing to obey an order' would appear to be and that is why the punishment was awarded by a Lt Col?

Any ideas as to what 'today punishment No2' would be?****

Under this is a note penned by:

G(?) A Tinne Capt RFACommanding 190th Bde. RFA. Ammn. Colm

It is difficult to decipher his annotation above his signature.

The annotation could be: Certified - no entry (which could be a later posted note, relative to the fact that follows.

Finally......

Looking further down this ancestor's record, it states:

Total service towards engagement 29/4/16Total service towards pension 29/4/16

The date of discharge has been blocked out. Total service is 208 days which goes back (roughly) to his sign-up.

On his record card is written....

...under para 392(v9) having made a mis-statement on age(?) on enlistment authority. ????? (Possibly the number of the authority) records (possibly) 38/w/26

dated 6/4/16.

Capt. Ga Tinne, again, is the commanding officer.

****It is difficult to decipher further as written in ink in a very small space!

Does anyone know if Para 392 (v) appears in the Army Act or do they know what this para is?

On the original short form attestation he states an age that would make his date of birth: December 1985. His actual date of birth was June 1898, which would make him 16y 8 months when he signed up.

What would have happen to someone in this situation? Just told to leave or 'punished' under terms of the Army Act?

Would he have been called up again later in the war?

Thank you for reading this. I hope my info has helped.

I look forward to hearing.

I hope someone here has an answer for me as well.

As a final note, the 'witness' to this ancestor's charge was a Pr. Winslet which may be of interest to someone here.

[a8bunnyboy]

Further to my earlier posting, here is the link to the Wimbledon Museum website. It details the 190th Brigade.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

http://www.wimbledonmuseum.org.uk/tour.php?cat=war&page=2#menutop

[headgardener]

A8bunnyboy,

Thanks very much for your post. I'm interested to see that the Brigade were effectively a 'Pals' unit ("Wimbledon's Own", as per the Wimbledon museum website).

As for your questions about your own man's service, my understanding is that a soldier who was shown to be underage would simply be dismissed rather than punished, and that he would be liable for call-up once he attained the correct age. So you may find more service papers for your man (they could be sperate from the papers that you have already found).

I have absolutely no idea what the modern equivalent of FP No.2 would be. And drunkeness was definitely a lesser offence than refusing to obey an order.

Hoepfully someone else may come along and add something more, otherwise try posting a thread on your man in the 'Soldiers' section.

[a8bunnyboy]

Head Gardener,

Glad to be of assistance and thank you for your answer.

Further facts have come to light this morning. A relative has an A5-sized sheet bearing what sounds to be like a discharge reference with a particular reference to the fact that my man "worked extremely well with the horses". She tells me that he was a 'carman' with the RASC.? She is mailing me a scan of the original, so from that I should glean full information. Evidently, it would appear that he re-enlisted (or was conscripted?) later on when he attained age.

Would you know if a copy of the document is of any interest to others? I would be happy for it to pass into the public domain, if it is. I thought it may help where someone is tracing their ancestor and he may well be the man who signed my man's form. If then that person's name is 'searchable' it pins down that person's position in time? New to all this, maybe I am just being 'fanciful'?

Further, I am to receive a letter from my man's father (My great grandfather) who was serving in the Canadian Over-Seas Expeditionary force in 1917, written to his youngest son. In the letter he talks of two years on the front line and advises his youngest to stay put in South London! Several photographs of them in uniform as well. Again, would these be of interest anywhere, do you think? They have been in a biscuit tin all these years!

I am absorbed by this 'voyage of discovery' that my young children started me on!

I wish I had embarked upon the journey 20 years ago!

Kind regards,

Collin.