200015 Sgt J Simpson 1/4 Northats

[Mick Simpson]

First mistake, previously posted on wrong forum.

Im New to this research and having looked at a couple of old posts regarding the 1/4 Northants it seems there is plenty of knowledgable help here. And i now have got the bug!!

My Great Granfather, Sgt John (but called Jack) Simpson (The number 200015 is the only match i have found but is not substaiated yet) was at Gallipoli with the regiment where i understand he was wounded (according to the northampton roll of honour) at some point. He went on to Egypt Palestine etc. As i understand it the Regt was there till almost the end of the war? He was Time Expired at some point while there and re enlisted.

We have his medal cards for the usual 3 and the TFEM. Also a copy of the Wos & Sgts photo when they were at St Albans Just before deploying to Gallipoli with his name on the nominal roll. I also have a copy of the Div/Bde/Regt war diary for the gallipoli period which i am currentlly reading.

But a reference from the Northampton Library that My father had, said he went to France and was captured and held in Germany before being released after the armistice and demobilised in 1920. So did he go to a different regiment on re enlisting?

I intend to Visit Kew for medal roll and service record, The Northampton Library and records, and museum at some point. Working abroad at the moment so impatience is getting the better of me for more information!! We also have one surviving daughter (My fathers Aunt) who he is visiting tomorrow. to try and identify him in the picture. And glean any recollections.

Possibly a red herring but i came across a photo of a C/Sgt T Simpson of the 4th Northants holding the colours in 1909. My Great Great Grandfaher was a T simpson and would have been 45yrs old - surely not?? My Granfather was also a Northants TA man prior to 1928 when he signed up as a regular in the grenadier guards.

Can anyone fill any gaps or pointers i should follow up? Any help appreciated. Thanks

[Stebie9173]

Hello, Mick.

I should hopefully have some info for you when I get back home - I have most of the dates of woundings of men of the battalion whilst on Gallipoli, so presuming he was wounded he should hopefully be mentioned. At the moment, his number suggests that he was part of the original 1st Volunteer Force battalion that converted into the 4th Battalion of the new Territorial Force on 1-4-1908.

It is certainly possible if he was wounded on Gallipoli or at Gaza in 1917, or suffered from disease and was evacuated home that he could have gone back to the front in France rather than back to Egypt, especially in the post 1916 period. The fact that he was renumbered as a Territorial would suggest that this was not until after March 1917 when the T.F. renumbering occured.

Do you have a street address for him and I will have a look on the Absent Voters List to confirm his number.

Steve.

[Mick Simpson]

31 Ash Street Northampton

[warproject]

Hi Mick.

In the Absent Voter's list he is recorded as below.

Spring 1919, St Lawrence's Ward, Page 147

8577, Simpson John, 31 Ash Street, 20015 Pte., 2nd Northants.

Sandy

[Mick Simpson]

Hello Sandy and apologies to Steve for not saying hello previously.

Thanks for the information i did try to research the Absent voters list and Times casualty lists but without success, are they on line anywhere?

Well that is a good couple of leads with his previous number and confirmation of the new number (It was three zeros 200015?) I have the right man.

And confirming my line of thought on a different Battalion at some stage, i look forward to researching the 2nd Bn.

Many Thanks

Mick

[Stebie9173]

Second Battalion

That would suggest that he may have been taken POW at the Chemin des Dames on the Aisne on 27 May 1918 when most of 8th Division was surrounded and captured...

However, I do not have him listed on the long list of Missing men in the official casualty lists for that time.

Nor do I have him on my lists of men wounded at Gallipoli (which covers 15 August 1915 to 16 November 1915)

There are however a couple of things of note:

Page 500 of the medal rolls for the British War Medal shows him first serving overseas with the 2nd Battalion, which is absolute twaddle as his date of entry is 100% for the 1/4th Battalion embarking on the Royal George to Gallipoli. (A case in point not to trust everything you see on official records!)

It also has no final discharge dates which suggests he was still serving when the Rolls were compiled (this sheet is dated 23-3-1920).

That actually means that there is a chance that his service records are held by the MOD Historical Disclosures department, and that yopu may be able to ask them to supply a copy.

There must be some more references to him around, so I shall have to do some deeper digging....

The 1918 Absent Voters list lists him with 4th Battalion, by the way, differing from the later AVL posted by Sandy.

Steve.

[Mick Simpson]

Steve

Thanks I appreciate the help. Still plenty of mystery to unravel!

On one web site I have seen a Photo Of a old building with a shell hole in it with the following caption

"1/4th Bn Northamptonshire Regiment Bri HQ Showing a shell hole after battle of 27 Nov. 1917"

But I have seen no further references to the 1/4 being in france.

Mick

[Stebie9173]

The 1/4th Battalion were never in France.

The battle on the 27 November 1917 was at Wilhelma (a German colony, hence the non-middle eastern name) near Haifa. The Turks attacked the British line in strength and the 1/4th Northamptons found themselves facing a vastly superior number of the enemy. A counter-attack by the Northamptons, and their neighbours in the line, saw off the attack, however. The Northamptons Commanding Officer Lt. Col. John Brown and his staff were in the HQ when the shell hit but escaped unharmed, though a little dusty....

Incidentally, John Simpson would have had an earlier number before renumbering. I cannot narrow it down at the moment beyond saying that it would have been between 96 and 181 (No. 95 was renumbered 200013, and number 182 was renumbered 200023). The renumbering was USUALLY in sequence of the old numbers.

I do wonder whether he was drafted in as a replacement for 2nd Battalion men lost at the Aisne in May 1918 ?

Steve.

[Mick Simpson]

Steve

My blunder on the France thing as Bri sounded french and the house didn't look Middle eastern and i needed a french clue!

The numbering is interesting, Sandy came back with a number off the AVL of 8577 and mentions he was Pte in the 2nd?

Also on the TFEM medal card which is and adapted MM card the Military has been crossed out and TFEM put above. The Regt number 200015 But on the bottom on the Date of Gazette (which i assume it would not have been) is the number 178, preceded by two zeros or lower case ao but a distinct gap. Followed by the date 1/5/19. I thought it would be the roll number. But......????

He was born 1988 so would have been in the Bn for a good number of years before the war.

Mick

[Mick Simpson]

Born 1888

[Stebie9173]

The AVL number is the number that he was on the AVL i.e. the 8577th man on the AVL (these numbers are the same on the 1918 and 1919 AVLs). They are not an Army reference number.

Normal age of enlistment into the Army tended to be age 18 or 19, but could range between 17 and 25, and even younger if joining as a boy musician. So if we say joined at age 19, then that fits with him being a pre-T.F. man (before 1908) in the Volunteers.

The TFEM was awarded after 12 years service BUT war service counted double. So, roughly speaking a man joining in say 1907 would be eligible for a TFEM in 1919 without the war intervening, but in about 1916/17 with the war. The TFEM was not published in the London Gazette, but a local paper might mention it.

I think the Bri should read Bn. = Battalion.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Not exactly what I was looking for, but I think this is probably his brother Frederick later Died of Wounds with the Royal Berkshire Regiment on 7 April 1917 ?

(Northampton Mercury 8-10-1915)

From what it says it may well be Jack's father in the 1909 Colour Sergeant picture!

"D" Company of the 7th battalion was the Company of mainly Northampton men raised by Edgar Mobbs, the England Rugby International.

Steve.

[Mick Simpson]

Steve

Where do you get all this from. Yes he had a brother Frederick who i knew nothing about and it is amazing that the Csgt could be Great Great Grandfather.

I am going to be at this for some time I think, i find it fascinating i am hooked. 28 years service myself i thought i had the Military out of my system.

Many thanks so helpfull

Mick

[Stebie9173]

This is Frederick:

Name: SIMPSON, FREDERICK

Initials: F

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Royal Berkshire Regiment

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Age: 23

Date of Death: 07/04/1917

Service No: 37460

Additional information: Son of the late Thomas and Harriet Simpson, of Northampton.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: O. VIII. C. 2.

Cemetery: ST. SEVER CEMETERY EXTENSION, ROUEN

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=520915

He previously served as No. 15578 of the 7th Battalion of Northamptonshire Regiment. He was reported as Wounded as a Private with 7th Battalion per the Times of 19 October 1915 - likely to have been at the Battle of Loos on 26 September 1915 (or a day or two after), since the 7th Northamptons almost literally marched straight off the boat to the battlefield of Loos.

Steve.

P.S. If you send me a PM (Personal Message) with details of you e-mail address, I should be able to supply you with his medal roll pages.

[Mick Simpson]

Steve

Just Skyped my father who also knew nothing of Fredericks service and demise, also indicates that Thomas the CSgt died between 1909 and 1917 which is new.

Even more questions for his aunt Pam in the morning!

Mick

[Stebie9173]

It seems likely that Frederick was mortally wounded during the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Berkshire Regiment attack on Gouzeaucourt Wood on 4 April 1917, by the way.

A final thought - you should probably contact the Northamptonshire Regiment Museum as they have a partial "Casualty" list for 2nd Battalion which includes movements, etc.

Steve.