arm insignia.

[swbafc1967]

someone did post a picture of who i think is my great uncle KIA 4th nov 1918, private ambrose ratcliffe.

i will try to upload a cap badge and a picture of him if anyone can help identify the regiment this soldier is from. ambrose served with the lincolnshires and then the manchester 12 battalion.

i do have his scroll copy and medal index.

[swbafc1967]

someone did post a picture of who i think is my great uncle KIA 4th nov 1918, private ambrose ratcliffe.

i will try to upload a cap badge and a picture of him if anyone can help identify the regiment this soldier is from. ambrose served with the lincolnshires and then the manchester 12 battalion.

i do have his scroll copy and medal index.

here is the cap badge of the soldier

[swbafc1967]

here is the cap badge of the soldier

and the full picture of ambrose, can anyone identify the unit/regiment he is from, he has a lanyard and his boots look different to those of others from my family. this soldier looks pretty smart compared to my great grandfather (who also died due to the war)?? any help[ will be appreciated

[Grovetown]

Foxing me. The cap badge suggests some possibilties, but none (to my knowledge) consistent with the shoulder title.

It looks like he has a 'twisted cord' shoulder strap - and so we can say (if that's the case) that the picture was taken between 1903 and 1908 (when that style was withdrawn from service).

Cheers,

GT.

[janecavell]

Could the shoulder title be SWB (South Wales Borderers?). But the SWB cap badge (at least the only one I've seen!) was a sphinx in a wreath, not at all the shape of the one in the photo. This seems to show the Prince of Wales' feathers which I think were used by other Welsh regiments but not by SWB?

Confused Poppy

[KevinBattle]

Grovetown: I concede to your knowledge of lanyards aiguillettes etc, however young Ambrose was 25 when he died in 1918, so regretfully, don't think he can have been in Army uniform in 1903 to 1908!

Name: RATCLIFFE

Initials: A

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Manchester Regiment

Unit Text: 12th (Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry) Bn.

Age: 25

Date of Death: 04/11/1918

Service No: 77091

Additional information: Son of Thomas Ratcliffe, of 26, Darkhouse Lane, Deepfields, Bilston, Staffs., and the late Fanny Ratcliffe.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: D. 45.

Cemetery: ENGLEFONTAINE BRITISH CEMETERY

From the photo he looks to be aged 18 onwards, so we are looking for 1911 onwards.

sk raco says he served in a Lincolnshire Battalion, as well as 12th Manchesters, but neither seem to fit with the shoulder titles shown.....

Whilst the cap badge looks close to a "Prince of Wales" feathers, was there a SOUTH Lincolnshire Yeomanry Regt pre war? I hope so as the only "S.?? Regiment I could suggest would be South Wales Borderers which equally unlikely!!

How about the South LANCASHIRE Regiment (The Prince of Wales's Volunteers)? Has Prince of Wales feathers AND S L title?????

[Grovetown]

Grovetown: I concede to your knowledge of lanyards aiguillettes etc, however young Ambrose was 25 when he died in 1918, so regretfully, don't think he can have been in Army uniform in 1903 to 1908!

It's a conundrum then. If he is wearing twisted cord shoulder straps, these were introduced in 1903 and changed to 'fixed' shoulder straps in 1904. Both were worn in parallel (the cords to be 'worn out') until 1908 when the corded tunics were ordered withdrawn, and when metal shoulder titles were also introduced.

He's obviously not in the Manchesters in this image – the only unit shown on his MIC – nor the Lincolns. Not the South Lancs either, as while featuring the feathers, these were much smaller, wreathed and without separate scroll.

As a total mish-mash of uniforms were seen in the early part of the war, so he could have just conceivably been stuffed in an early one from a cupboard (if he joined early enough and before issued with a 'proper' one), but that would not explain the cap badge nor the shoulder title.

It's a puzzler.

Alternatively, sk raco says that they "think" this is Ambrose, and it may not be him at all....

Cheers,

GT.

[Wardog]

I'm not so sure it is a twisted cord shoulder strap. I think it is a standard later one, just viewed 'edge on'.

Regards, Paul.

[Grovetown]

I'm not so sure it is a twisted cord shoulder strap. I think it is a standard later one, just viewed 'edge on'.

Regards, Paul.

Could be: just has a plaited look to me.

Either way, the insignia is seemingly awry for the man in question.

Cheers,

GT.

[David B]

When the shoulder strap is blown up it looks like a plaited cord as it goes through the shoulder strap, then becomes a series of bowlines until it passes under the

arm. Don't know if there is any significance in that.

David

[Steven Broomfield]

I think it was Sherlock Holmes who said something about once everything else is eliminated, you're left with the obvious. Now, I'm no expert, but my first reaction to the cloth title was "S Lanc...", so I'd go with South Lancs.

The cap badge is odd, but I'd go for Prince of Wales's Volunteers (S Lancs). It's a poor picture, the badge is slightly obscured, but looking at it, I'd be at a loss to give an alternative.

As for the shoulder strap, it looks to me like a lanyard which has in some way been plaited under/round the shoulder strap.

As I say, I'm by no means an expert on uniforms and suchlike, but South Lancs seems obvious, so that's where I'd lay my money.

[swbafc1967]

I think it was Sherlock Holmes who said something about once everything else is eliminated, you're left with the obvious. Now, I'm no expert, but my first reaction to the cloth title was "S Lanc...", so I'd go with South Lancs.

The cap badge is odd, but I'd go for Prince of Wales's Volunteers (S Lancs). It's a poor picture, the badge is slightly obscured, but looking at it, I'd be at a loss to give an alternative.

As for the shoulder strap, it looks to me like a lanyard which has in some way been plaited under/round the shoulder strap.

As I say, I'm by no means an expert on uniforms and suchlike, but South Lancs seems obvious, so that's where I'd lay my money.

thanks all you have probably answered correctly to the south lancs. ive been in touch with cwgc due to my great grandfather being added to the casualties and i sent them a pic they reacon its the south lancs as well. the cap badge did give me trouble but it may be that the flash hilighted parts of the badge making it look different? as you also say it may not be ambrose, or it is him taken as a younger man or cadet?? i,m just guessing but coming from the black country the cadets would be south staffs.

or as you say it may not even be his uniform but taken sort of fancy dress before he recieved his official uniform. pity his was KIA so we will never know to compare to later pics.

[swbafc1967]

thanks all you have probably answered correctly to the south lancs. ive been in touch with cwgc due to my great grandfather being added to the casualties and i sent them a pic they reacon its the south lancs as well. the cap badge did give me trouble but it may be that the flash hilighted parts of the badge making it look different? as you also say it may not be ambrose, or it is him taken as a younger man or cadet?? i,m just guessing but coming from the black country the cadets would be south staffs.

or as you say it may not even be his uniform but taken sort of fancy dress before he recieved his official uniform. pity his was KIA so we will never know to compare to later pics.

just thought about comments and it come to my attention his boots are not army issue (i think) so it may be a picture sent home either before aregiment was joined or something like that?

[Grovetown]

just thought about comments and it come to my attention his boots are not army issue (i think) so it may be a picture sent home either before aregiment was joined or something like that?

Neither here nor there I'm afraid. There was territorial boot, similar – but not identical - to pattern; the Government, especially in the earlier part of the war, sourced many commercially made boots as a result of shortages of pattern; and many men bought their own boots which, again, were similar to pattern but differed in many ways such as toe caps, whiffs of brogue and speed lacers.

As before, I'd practically put my house on the tunic having 'twisted cord' shoulder straps, making the picture almost certainly pre-war or, at best, 1914.

Cheers,

GT.

[swbafc1967]

Neither here nor there I'm afraid. There was territorial boot, similar – but not identical - to pattern; the Government, especially in the earlier part of the war, sourced many commercially made boots as a result of shortages of pattern; and many men bought their own boots which, again, were similar to pattern but differed in many ways such as toe caps, whiffs of brogue and speed lacers.

As before, I'd practically put my house on the tunic having 'twisted cord' shoulder straps, making the picture almost certainly pre-war or, at best, 1914.

Cheers,

GT.

ambrose ratcliffe,s medal card shows he didnt get the 14/15 star so it maybe he was a conscript or he did not serve in france i,m unsure if you got the star just being in the army? just saying it maybe he joined 1916 time at conscription? i am no expert on ww1 so excuse my ignorance, without his military record i will never be 100% its him but my aunt and uncle say it is? i am open that it maybe another relative i am unaware of? however i am pretty sure it is ambrose and it maybe he was in the terratorials. thanks for the boot question though, i was puzzled as to why he looked smart in comparison to my greatgrandfather. who joined in 1914 but looks like the bloke who measured him up thought he needed fattening up!