Scarlet Tunic

[4thGordons]

Picked this up on whim. Scarlet tunic with dark blue (not black as the appear in picture) facings. No buttons or insignia but apparently once had a sleeve badge at the point of the right cuff) and collar badges as there are small hole for both. It also looks like it may have had shoulder "wings" / "shells" at some point. I wondered if perhaps a bandsman's tunic? No sign of label. Material is smooth (like officers tunics) and lined as opposed to "rough" wool of my scarlet doublets or frock.

Can someone identify the pattern of tunic/jacket and period used? I suspect this may be an inter-war or WWII (or perhaps even later if ceremonial) piece but am unsure.

Thanks,

Chris

[Graham Stewart]

Pointed cuff in facing colour & pointed shoulder strap in facing colour = 1911. The last of the regular patterns and all it needs are some GS buttons and titles and collars belonging to a 'Royal' Regiment.

The TF never got to wear it, as nearly all TF infantry at this time were still wearing a pattern 'loosely' termed as the '1909' pattern. It was based on the pattern then currently being worn by regulars, but instead of having unit titles woven into the rounded scarlet shoulder strap, which had white piping, they were left plain so that metal titles could be added.

See this post where similar questions popped up;-

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...147012&st=0

[4thGordons]

Pointed cuff in facing colour & pointed shoulder strap in facing colour = 1911. The last of the regular patterns and all it needs are some GS buttons and titles and collars belonging to a 'Royal' Regiment.

The TF never got to wear it, as nearly all TF infantry at this time were still wearing a pattern 'loosely' termed as the '1909' pattern. It was based on the pattern then currently being worn by regulars, but instead of having unit titles woven into the rounded scarlet shoulder strap, which had white piping, they were left plain so that metal titles could be added.

See this post where similar questions popped up;-

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...147012&st=0

THANKS GRAHAM.... very much appreciated.

Right, now off to a certain well known auction site to look for a set of buttons!

Thanks again.

[Graham Stewart]

Kings Crown gilding metal GS buttons usually come in bundles - so best of luck. I rcently got a lovely Kings Royal Rifles rifle green jacket complete, off that site for a song. Despite their age I find full dress jackets from this period very appealing, even though awkward to store. Mine are all hung up and covered with those unwanted charity bags that come through the letterbox on a regular basis - so there's a tip for you.

[Muerrisch]

Sorry to spoil the party, but it is not, definitely not the last pattern tunic for a Royal regiment.

There is no white braiding/ piping on collar and cuff.

Are we sure the collars and cuffs are blue?

[Muerrisch]

The Royal Army Clothing Department Ledgers have this [and only this] to say about TUNICS in the relevant period. [scarlet frocks 5 or 7 button died out, except in India, with the intro. of SD c. 1902]

1901 Tunics infantry all regiments Cuffs pointed, skirts white piping as RMLI, four additional buttons on skirts, shoulder straps edged white braid 19.11.01

1901 Tunics infantry Royal regiments White braiding to top of collar instead of bottom, and the cuffs edged white braid 19.11.01

1902 Tunics, infantry Queried white edging shoulder straps but ratified as already issued 16.10.02

1903 Frocks, scarlet, blue facings [ie royal] militia sergeants Collar blue white tubular braid top collar, shoulder straps trimmed white tubular, cuffs blue, trimmed. 7 button front

15.5.05

1905 Tunics infantry Standard pattern deposited embroidered shoulder straps removed and plain added 23.8.05

1905 Tunics infantry Embroidered shoulder straps removed and plain substituted Amends 23.8.05

1906 Tunics infantry Collars leather tabs removed and cloth substituted 6.6.06

1907 Tunics infantry Two qualities: staff sergeants and above, sergeants and below 3.07.07

1907 Tunic ‘improvement’ discussed, with blue/green/yellow facings, collar cut square in front and fasted hooks and eyes, shoulder s facing colour, but ‘no further action’ 3.12.07

1907 Tunics infantry To be modified ‘sufficient inlay in front of skirt to allow letting out’ 31.10.07

1909 Tunic R&F Foot Guards Collar & xxxx ? altered in accordance with ? Not understood

1909 Tunics foot guards rank and file Grenadier coldstream irish sic collar x? altered Replace 1907

1910 Tunics collars foot guards Collar shape changed Replace 1907

1910 Tunics collars foot guards staff sergeants band privates all guards regiments

shape altered Replace 1908

1912 Tunics Scottish Shoulder straps new shape and facing colour instead of body cloth and collar cut square

1912 Tunics cloth Rifles Breast and ticket pockets removed and collar cut square and shoulder straps of the new shape 23.7.12

1912 Tunics cloth infantry Breast and ticket pockets removed and collar cut square and shoulder straps of the new shape facing colour Replaces 1907 [factual addition by Grumpy .... at the same time, Royal collars reverted to white at bottom]

The major changes were 1901, 1905, 1906, 1907 and 1912. There was in those days only a short period before change was approved and implemented, but, within a unit, there would be some men in the 'old' pattern, eg. I have 1913 photos 1st RWF with mixed collar designs, some with the new white braiding between scarlet and blue, some with braiding on top of blue.

I also believe that TF were not obliged to wear or own a scarlet tunic ...... seen it somewhere in regs.

[Muerrisch]

Puzzled by what sort of badge might go on right cuff: only candidates that spring to mind are Distance judging star [regulars only] and 4/5 years effiiency star [identical] TF only.

Thinking aloud, I wonder if it is a 7-button frock, not a tunic? The lining makes this unlikely, but soldiers returning from India had their serviceable frocks lined while they waited for tunic issue.

[gnr.ktrha]

In the last few year a lot of these tunic have been turning up which have been used by Army Cadet Force bands. Some I have seen have had ACF [White on Red] cloth shoulder titles sewn on, others have had various 'Band' badges on, not always regulation types. I wonder if that has been the case here. The tunics I have seen all have had traces of the Paper Issue label inside, some have had readable dates from 1913 and 14. Some show signs of shoulder and collar badges, others have never had them. One thing I have notice with them is than none I have viewed so far have had either soldiers issue details printed inside ie,''2 DLI, 9'14, 45371''etc, or SSAFA stamps inside.

Regards,

Stewart

[Grovetown]

One thing I have notice with them is than none I have viewed so far have had either soldiers issue details printed inside ie,''2 DLI, 9'14, 45371''etc

Then here's a 7th NF, 5-14 etc for you!

Cheers,

GT.

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello GT,

What I meant was that non of the ACF tunics I have seen have this sort of detail stamped inside, however I do have in my own collection, tunics with similar details stamped inside, similar to the photograph you have been kind enough to show. Sorry I had not been a bit more clear, I'm having one of those days and I think the heat is getting to me.

The reason I mentioned the ACF band type tunic in the first place was because Grumpy was not sure what the badge has been, that has been worn cuff. Some of the ACF types I have seen have had all sorts of odd badges attached to them, so I was suggesting this may be the case here, or at least a possibility.

Does your tunic have a service number in it. I have been lucky with a couple of mine as the service papers have survived.

All the best,

Stewart

[Grovetown]

Does your tunic have a service number in it. I have been lucky with a couple of mine as the service papers have survived.

All the best,

Stewart

See what you mean now Stewart.

No is the short answer - unless E 71 has some relevance. There are a few 71s to the NF on the MICs, but nothing pertaining to the 7th. I might ask the museum to have a look at the May 1914 muster roll for the 7th, if they have such a thing, to see if we have any candidates.

Cheers,

GT.

[Graham Stewart]

GT - Seems you and I werre bidding for the same NF tunic. The markings in my own opinion can be mis-leading and wonder if they aren't a local QM's mark as opposed to that of the Clothing Dept. For my money "E-71" is an 'E' Company jacket belonging to ? and that pattern is seen commonly among NF(TF) post 1908/09, right up to 1914. If I remember correctly the appearance of the same jackets were mentioned in Battalion Notes around that time.

My 4th Bn, NF jacket has also been branded locally with similar ID numbers, although I can't show them as I'm away. In 1910/11 the 4th Bn ditched their traditonal Rifle Grey and they too adopted scarlet, again taken from Battalion Notes and annual camp photos.

David - considering the 1912 Clothing Notes mention removal of "breast and ticket pockets" they're talking about another pattern and not the other ranks review order??????

[Graham Stewart]

David - quick count of button holes on illustrated tunic looks to be only '7'

[Grovetown]

Sorry about that Graham!!

For my money "E-71" is an 'E' Company jacket belonging to ?

That is my feeling too, although I'm not sure/ don't know whether they would have stretched to an E Coy. I'm not great on numbering, but have noticed that a lot of the 71s in the MICs are prefaced by seemingly the (admittedly, Service) battalion - eg 17/71, 22/71, 24/71 etc. The one shown as a 7th Bn is a mis-transcription and is actually a Hussar.

I know the museum charges for research, but I would hope answer if they haven't the relevant roll FoC before progressing further.

Here's the label FYI.

Cheers,

GT.

[4thGordons]

I am at work at the mo' - when I get home (fairly soon, in time for the big match!) I'll take some detailed pictures. As far as I recall there is no stamping at all.

As I mentioned my initial impression once I had it in hand was that is was probably post WWI

Is there anything in particular it would be helpful for me to photograph?

Grumpy: the badge on the sleeve was mounted with two pins one above the other - I'll measure the distance between them.

Chris

[Graham Stewart]

GT - This is what your jacket would have look like post 1908/1909 to 1914. Prior to 1908 all NF(TF) Battalion had the battalion indicator woven into the shoulder strap. Certainly feel it's a local mark as both my TF tunics have stampings. Your NF 7/71 enlisted or transferred across from the Volunteers in April 1908, but may have disappeared from the battalion by 1914 and the jacket then returned to storage.

Don't bank on getting anything back from the Museum as they hold virtually nothing to other ranks and their old curator used to contact me for help.

Forgot to add - note the ticket pocket below the 1903 pattern brown leather belt.

[Grovetown]

Thanks Graham: appreciate that.

Forgot to add - note the ticket pocket below the 1903 pattern brown leather belt.

No ticket pocket - do you know when was this deleted?

As for titles, shoulder straps punched for metal - I assume T/7/Grenade/NF - and I imagine it'll be the devil's own job (not too mention a pricey one) finding them. No rush tho...

Cheers,

GT.

[Graham Stewart]

The 4th Bn,NF(TF) jacket in Rifle Grey - worn for only a short period from 1909, before being replaced by the scarlet one mentioned earlier. Luckily I have in my photo collection a photo of nearly every battalion at annual camp from 1908, so that way a path of the wear of these jackets can be documented.

[Graham Stewart]

Odd - both of mine have ticket pockets. Just noted they're 7 button too. Titles are as rare as rocking horse sh*t. My 4th Bn scarlet has the wm buttons and a pair of wm collars, but no titles.

[4thGordons]

A little more detail.

as you can see lower skirt is lined with a silk-like material

Sleeve holes --------------------------------------------------------------------------------collar holes

washed out label?

The cuffs and collars are very dark but I think blue not black, although could be faded/washed black.

Chris

[Graham Stewart]

Just noticed Chris that your jacket doesn't appear to be scarlet melton cloth, but a superior woven material. There's no patterning in the material of our jackets. Wonder what Grumpy makes of the material and the weave pattern???

[Muerrisch]

If it is black, the only regiment associated with that facing - North Staffordshire, lost it in 1881 and regained it in 1937.

The material and tailoring sets me to wondering if this may be an officer's or WO's tunic. The mystery badge lower right might therefore be a WO crown BUT [and it is a big BUT] the prescribed material for the badge was scarlet worsted, not gilding metal.

Perhaps we should look further afield: Colonial 1901-1914 maybe?

[Graham Stewart]

Grumpy - The only weave that I know of - similar to Chris's jacket - is that seen with later pattern 'Coronation blues' and No.1 Dress blues thereafter. The addition of the silkish lining would point to a senior rank, but why no gold lace at the collar or cuff???

Have to admit that post-WWI to 1960's is out of my comfort zone as there appears to be no reliable reference works to go on.

[Muerrisch]

Graham, quite so, quite so.

Never mind comfort zone, post 1920 or so has never gripped me much.

Napoleonic, yes, Hitler period, no.

I think we have run ourselves into the ground here: a long list of what it isn't!

[4thGordons]

Just noticed Chris that your jacket doesn't appear to be scarlet melton cloth, but a superior woven material. There's no patterning in the material of our jackets. Wonder what Grumpy makes of the material and the weave pattern???

Yes this is what I was trying to indicate in the initial post ("smooth not rough") - it most closely resembles the material of a late 1930s Royal Artillery Officers Tunic I have.

Many thanks for all your expert comments....even narrowing it down helps, for now I can file it under weird.

Thanks again

Chris