The 'Lala Baba Battery' at Suvla

[johnshep]

I have picked up several references in AWM4/13/15/4 (HQ NZ&A Div Artillery WD) to 'The Lala Baba Battery' who despite their position in the Suvla sector seem to have been under the control of Lt Col Hope Johnston in the Northern Sector of Anzac in late August. From some contexts it is tempting to think that it is 1/4th City of Glasgow Battery that is being referred to, but p8 of this war diary states that the Lala Baba Battery was equipped with 18-pdrs whereas the City of Glasgow Battery had 5" Howitzers.

There is another clue on p7 of the same diary which states 'Four 6-horse teams were provided on the night of 20/21st August to assist 2nd Lowland Battery to move from Shell Green to Chailak Dere where they were picked up by one of their own teams and taken north' [to Suvla, perhaps?]

My problem is that in all the reference material I have been able to find, the 2nd Lowland Brigade are shown to have remained in Egypt.

John

[michaeldr]

John,

Have you made any progress with this question over the last 12 months? A couple of recent additions to my bookshelves have brought me back this topic.

One is Volume 2 Appendices (to the OH of the Great War, Military Ops., Gallipoli) where Appendix 16 is GHQ Instructions to Major-General De Lisle, CB, DSO dated 15.8.15 and signed W P Braithwaite Major-General, Chief of the General Staff, MEF

In his item 4 Braithwaite has

"…There are at present ashore, belonging to the above [11th, 10th, 53rd and 54th Divisions], two FA Brigades (three batteries of which are awaiting horses to bring them up from Anzac) and two Heavy Batteries. In addition, two Highland Mountain Batteries, attached to the IX Corps, are ashore, and the 1/4th Lowland Brigade (two batteries 5-inch howitzers) are at your disposal when they can be brought from Anzac…"

As you mention 18-pounders then am I correct in thinking that we are looking for one of the three batteries first mentioned by Braithwaite?

My second new arrival is Farndale's history of the artillery in forgotten fronts; see his p.40. They could be from 58th Brigade RFA which landed at Anzac on 9th August and moved to Suvla on 16th ie. The day after Braithwaite's above GHQ Instruction.

If they landed at Anzac on the 9th would they have been allowed to stand there, idle for a whole week without coming into action? Perhaps they were attached for that time to Lt Col Hope Johnston?

re your - There is another clue on p7 of the same diary which states 'Four 6-horse teams were provided on the night of 20/21st August to assist 2nd Lowland Battery to move from Shell Green to Chailak Dere where they were picked up by one of their own teams and taken north' [to Suvla, perhaps?]

My problem is that in all the reference material I have been able to find, the 2nd Lowland Brigade are shown to have remained in Egypt.

On his page 54, Farndale has -

"On 19th August, 1st/4th (Lowland) Howitzer Battery RFA had moved from Anzac to Suvla…"

Note that Farndale here says Battery and not Brigade

[At this point I must say that I have a few problems with Farndale regarding detail, especially when comparing his OoB pp39-42 with his narrative eg ; 15-pounders seem to become 18-pounders in some cases, etc]

There were two batteries of the 4th (Lowland) (Howitzer) Brigade the 4th and the 5th Batteries. Only the 5th Battery landed at Anzac, on 24 June (the other per Farndale's OoB, went to Helles on 21 June). Nevertheless, Braithwaite mentioned two batteries, did he not?

Two alternatives spring to mind here

Did the Helles howitzer battery move up to Anzac and then on to Suvla? It would then have been possible for the HQ NZ&A Div Artillery WD to refer to a 'second' Lowland Battery.

or

Is it possible that the "2nd" as seen in the page 7 diary entry "2nd Lowland Battery" should in fact correctly read "5th"?

[Farndale's OoB confirms your impression that the 2nd (Lowland) Brigade RFA (1st & 2nd Ayr Batteries) remained in Egypt]

regards

Michael

[Guest]

Thales/Michael - I am pretty certain the guns were the 18-pdrs of the LIX Bde RFA which landed on 7th-9th Aug and were based at Lala Baba.

The candidate batteries had to be in either 10th Div or 11th Div. .... the only 13th Div artillery nearby was at ANZAC (Howitzers only) or Helles, 29th Div's at Helles, and 53rd and 54th Div arrived with no artillery. ....Most of I0th Div's artillery was left behind (see below) or did not arrive at Suvla until 10th Sep, so the best candidate seems to be the 18-pdrs of the LIX Bde RFA (A, B, C and D Batteries) which landed on 7th-9th Aug (see analysis below). The 18-pdrs of the11th Div's LVIII Bde can be eliminated as they were based at Charak Chesme. The only remote alternative was 13th Div's guns which were at ANZAC. There is mention of guns being moved on 12th August from ANZAC. On the basis that you are looking for 18-pdrs, the 13th Div guns would be eliminated as candidates as they were Howitzers.......

In the OH on page 223 - Detailed plans for the Suvla Landings: " To attain these objects Sir Ian Hamilton aimed at landing....13,700 men and 12 guns [The Highland Mountain Bde (eight 10-pdrs) and "A" Battery (four 18-pdrs) of the LIX Bde RFA [11th Div]] and on page 229: "According to the plans drawn up at GHQ a total of 56 guns and howitzers would be available at Suvla by the night of the 7th. But thenceforward there would be some delay in landing the remainder of the IX Corps artillery, most of which owing to lack of Ammunition on the islands had been temporarily detained in Egypt. This consisted of one more 18-pdr Bde (the LX) belonging to the 11th Division, three 18 -pdr Bdes and two 4.5 inch batteries [the LIV, LV and LVI Bdes RFA and two batteries of the LVII (Howitzer) Bde] of the 10th Division and two 18-pdr Bdes of the 13th Division"..... Footnote: "The other two batteries of this Bde [LVII (Howitzer) Bde] and also the whole of the LXI (Howitzer) Bde belonging to the 11th Div had been left behind in England".... and on page 319 of the OH "More guns had been brought along the coastal track from ANZAC..." Footnote: " The LIX Bde RFA had completed its disembarkation during the 9th Aug. A Battery LVIII Bde arrived soon after daybreak on 12th Aug and went into position on the north side of the bay near Charak Chesme spring. (The other batteries followed on successive nights, the Bde being complete on 15th Aug) The 15th Heavy Battery (60-pdrs) landed at Suvla on 12th August and had two guns in action at Charak Chesme and two at Hill 10.so....

10th Irish Div

LIV Bde RFA (A,B, C & D Btys) - Initially left in Egypt and did not come further than Mudros. Eventually went to Salonika

LV Bde RFA (A,B, C & D Btys) - Initially left in Egypt....did not arrive until 10th Sep.

LVI Bde RFA (A,B, C & D Btys) - At Helles. A & B Btys did not arrive from Egypt until Oct..

LVII (Howitzer) Bde (HQ with A & D Btys only) C & D batteries left in England. Looks like only 2 batteries made it to Suvla. No reference in OH text though.

11th Northern Div

LVIII Bde RFA (A,B,C and D Btys) - "A" Bty arrived on 12th and completed landing by 15th. Based at Charak Chesme (near 10th Div).

LIX Bde RFA (A,B,C and D Btys) - " A" Bty landed on 7th, and remainder completed landing by 9th Aug. Based at Lala Baba

LX Bde RFA (A,B,C and D Btys) - did not arrive from Egypt until 25th October

LXI (Howitzer) Bde - left in England

Corps Troops

4th (Highland) Mountain Artillery Bde (TF) - Argyllshire Bty and Ross & Cromarty Bty. Landed on 7th. Split between Lala Baba and Charak Chesme

13th (Western) Div

LXVI Bde RFA (A,B,C and D Btys) - At Helles

LXVII Bde RFA (A,B,C and D Btys) - In Egypt,. Eventually sent to Salonika

LXVIII Bde RFA (A,B,C and D Btys)- In Egypt,. Eventually sent to Salonika

LXIX (Howitzwer) Bde RFA (A,B,C and D Btys) - At ANZAC

Attached to IX Corps

29th Div - Artillery left at Helles

53rd (Welsh) Div (TF) - No artillery at Suvla

54th (East Anglian) Div (TF) - No artillery at Suvla

Other supporting notes from the OH in Aug 1915 at Suvla:

1. Sketch 23 "Suvla 8 am 7th Aug" only shows "A" Bty LIX Bde RFA and the two Btys of the 4th Highland Mountain Bde RA had landed by 7th Aug.

2. Page 257 also reinforces this describing "one field and two mountain batteries already ashore [at 5:30 pm on the 7th]

3. Page 261 " It was not, however the military plans alone that collapsed at Suvla on 7th August. A failure just as complete attended the naval plans for the landing of guns and ammunition, water and supplies ....no [more] guns whatever were landed that day.

4. Sketch 24 "Suvla 1 am 8th August" still only shows "A" Bty LIX Bde RFA and the two Btys of the H4th Highland Mountain Bde RA

5. Page 273. 11 am on 8th Aug - Stopford: "...In view of want of adequate artillery support..."

6. Page 274 Footnote. "[Gen Mahon] had been promised the support of the left flank destroyer and of one battery of mountain guns from Lala Baba. The Battery from Lala Baba did not arrive till next day and it was subsequently discovered that when passing the Cut, Gen Sitwell [34th Bde, 11 Div] had claimed its service." - this indicated that one of the Hiighland Mountain Batteries had been at Lala baba and had been sent to Mahon near Ghazi Baba in the north.

7. Page 274 - 275. "The situaion from Mahon's point of view.....With his artillery in Egypt...." confirms 10th Divs artillery was not at Suvla.

8. Page 275. "The experience of Lt Col W K J Rettie in command of the LIX Bde RFA who arrived in Suvla Bay at daybreak of the 7th make interesting reading....'having located the CRA on the beach near Lala baba I was told to bring the batteries into action under that hillock. This was rather a shock as we had at least expected to go forward to Chocolate Hill' ". Confirms the 18 pdrs of LIX Bde were at Lala Baba.

9. page 279 " Stopford ...needed more artillery ..."

10. Page 292. 9th Aug "During the greater part of the day the attacking infantry had been covered by only eight 18-pdrs and two mountain guns." ..... Footnote: "Two mountain guns had been knocked out at the beginning of the action. Furthermore the 18-pdrs had been placed in position to fire on the Anafarta spur and could not fire on Scimitar Hill."

11. Page 297 5 pm 9th Aug. "...and Stopford himself was convinced there was not enough artillery.....but the 11th Div Artillery would be put at Lindley's [53rd Div] disposal..."

12. 10th Aug. Letter from Stopford to GHQ "The only artillery available to assist in the attack was two field batteries, on of which was not horsed and and one mountain battery (I had to send the other mountain battery to the 10th Div) instead of the six to eight brigades which would have been the normal proportion for the troops engaged......Gen Mahon ....cannot push on without further artillery support which is not available."

13. page 321. footnote. "[The advance] was supported by ....a Bde of 18-pdrs, two 60-pdrs and four mountain guns.

14.

I hope this helps...as usual, any mistakes are mine. Regards MG

[Pretswell]

Thales, Michael and Martin

My Grandfather left a taped account of an incident that happened whilst driving his limber team up Lala Baba, he was with the ASC , attached to 29th Division.

Hope this helps

David

[Guest]

Hell again...

According to the RFA Bde War Diaries and the History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery, the only 18-pdr Batteries at LALA BABA were LIX Bde RFA (3 Btys) (11th Div guns) and LV Bde RFA (10th Div guns). At one stage they were both located at LALA BABA (see map below)- the LIX Bde RFA from the outset and the LV Bde RFA from 30th Aug.

I spent all day at TNA trawling through various War Diaries and the "History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery - Forgotten Fronts and the Home Base 1914-1918" by Gen Sir Martin Farndale CB which has a large chapter on the three Gallipoli fronts - I assume this is what michaeldr is referring to. The book seems to be a cut-and-paste job of the OH in large chunks but there is some useful additional info, although he does have 18-pdrs turning into 15-pdrs as per Michael's post, so one might argue that Farndale's attention to detail is questionable. Some supporting evidence from the 18-pdr Btys of the 10th Div and 11th Div in the book and the War Diaries. There is one summary of Artillery disposition at SUVLA on 17th August which reveals much info:

1. Dispositions on 17th August:

1 x Bty 60-pdr

3 x Btys 18-pdrs LIX Bde RFA at LALA BABA

1 x Bty 18-pdrs LIX Bde RFA at Chocolate Hill - an interesting point that a Bty was so far advanced.

1 x Bty 18-pdrs LVIII Bde RFA at Grid 117 R [near Hill 10]

3 x Btys 18-pdrs LVIII Bde RFA at Grid 117 G

4 guns Mountain Bde

Reserve:

1 x 60-pdr XV Bde at Grid 117 G

2 x Btys Howitzers LVII Bde RFA at Grid 117 A

2. Dispositions of 10th Div Arty.

LIV Bde RFA - A,B,C & D Btys

- remained in Egypt

LV Bde RFA - A,B,C & D Btys

- arrived at Mudros 28th Aug....

B&D Btys transferred to SUVLA on 29th Aug. Disembarked and went straight to LALA BABA Grid 103 P8 (note slightly SW of Lala Baba). Digging in all night of 30th Aug.

These are the only contenders for the [18-pdr] 'Lala Baba' Battery from 10th Div

A&C Btys arrived on 11th Sep. Posted to left flank near 10 Div - temp detached

LVI Bde RFA - A,B,C & D Btys

- Arrived Mudros 13th Aug. (confirms all Btys went to Helles)

HQ, C&D Btys sent to Helles on 23rd Aug

A&B Btys sent to Helles on 17th Oct,

LVII Bde RFA (Howitzers)

- B&C Btys left in England

A Bty and HQ arrive at SUVLA and unload by evening of 16th Aug....

Interestingly these took 70 men to man haul

.......stayed until 15th Dec. then sent to Helles

D Bty ditto 17th Aug.... stay until 15th Dec. Sent to Helles

3. Dispositions of 11th Div Arty

LVIII Bde RFA - A,B,C & D Btys

- landed at ANZAC - 'A' Bty driven to SUVLA to support 10 Div on 12th Aug....remainder follow on consecutive nights. All in place by 16th Aug. Hist records at Grids 117 R (Choc Hill) and G (Charak Chesme) -

LIX Bde RFA - A,B,C & D Btys

- 'A' Bty arrived SUVLA on 7th Aug, remainder arrived by 9th Aug, in position on 10th Aug. History records 3 Btys located at

LALA BABA

and one at Choc Hill on 17th Aug.

LX Bde RFA - A,B,C & D Btys

- did not arrive until 25th October

In theory this is pretty conclusive, and I discovered an undated map showing LV Bty and LIX Bty at Lala Baba, which must date after 29th Aug

Any mistakes are mine. Regards MG

[Anthony Ward]

To all those you have contributed above - thank you so much - My father was in either the LVIII or the LVIX not sure which till later in the ward when he was mentioned in War Diary?

[Eceabat]

Hi all, just came across this thread and though I would add a small footnote to history.

 

In and around the positions marked on the map there are still the remains of a number of gun pits, along with trenches and dugouts. I have also been shown a cap badge from the Royal Artillery that was found on the north western slope of Lala Baba, which is now in a private museum in the village of Buyuk Anafarta. 

 

Cheers

Bill

[Anthony Ward]

On 27/02/2021 at 22:53, Eceabat said:

Hi all, just came across this thread and though I would add a small footnote to history.

 

In and around the positions marked on the map there are still the remains of a number of gun pits, along with trenches and dugouts. I have also been shown a cap badge from the Royal Artillery that was found on the north western slope of Lala Baba, which is now in a private museum in the village of Buyuk Anafarta. 

 

Cheers

Bill

Thanks for that Bill

Cheers

Anthony