Notts Royal Horse Artillery to Army Service Corps

[jochakram]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post, so please be gentle with me!

I am trying to find out with which unit and where my great grandfather served in the Great War.

His name was John Henry Sheldon from Nottingham.

His medal card shows ASC (Army Service Corps), Pte (Private) M/353111

Medal - Victory, roll - RASC/101 B245, Page 25219

British, roll - do, page - do.

I have his pension papers from Ancestry; he was serving in the Notts Royal Horse Artillery in the Territorial Army, from 16-5-11 to 19-8-14, when he was discharged as 'medically unfit for further service'.

I also have a photograph of him sitting on a horse in uniform (with what looks like an Artillery cap badge).

I also have a photo of my great grand mother who sent it to him in 1918 (May 20th), and the address on it is - Pte J. H. Sheldon, 353111. M.T. A.S.C., Base Depot E.(another lettter). (another letter). Egypt.

My questions (if anyone can help me) are as follows:

How, if he was medically unfit for service in the Territorials, did he manage to enlist in the regular army? (or was he called up?)

Which unit would he be in, in the ASC?

Where in Egypt would he have been serving?

And what would he have been doing?

Sorry if this is too much to ask, but any help would be gratefully received.

Many thanks in advance for the help!

Jo in sunny Cyprus

[27thBN]

Hi Jo welcome to the forum as a start is the number on his BWM or VM have M/353111 or M1 or M2 ie the 1 or 2 after the M will narrow it down a little bit as to what he did .RASC is very difficult to research at the best of times but you have a head start with his service record.I say the M1 or M2 as you said you had a picture of him on a horse and ASC was employed by RA to be Drivers ..M prefix being motorized and T prefix being a driver of a horse driven unit

Cheers MC

[David Porter]

Jo,

I have found that soon after mobilization the TF RHA dispensed with some long serving members without good reason.

"Medically unfit" was the usual excuse but never substantiated with hard medical evidence. The powers that be just though

they should no longer be in the unit now that war was declared.

Your great grandfather obviously took a step back but then realised he could enlist again in another unit.

The conscription of men started in 1916 so this is another aspect to factor in.

Whilst in the ASC it looks like he served in the EEF (Egyptian Expeditionary Force). MT can be Mechanical Transport.

Others may come forward to offer guidance as to where the MT ASC Base Depot was in Egypt.

[jochakram]

Hi Jo welcome to the forum as a start is the number on his BWM or VM have M/353111 or M1 or M2 ie the 1 or 2 after the M will narrow it down a little bit as to what he did .RASC is very difficult to research at the best of times but you have a head start with his service record.I say the M1 or M2 as you said you had a picture of him on a horse and ASC was employed by RA to be Drivers ..M prefix being motorized and T prefix being a driver of a horse driven unit

Cheers MC

Hi MC,

Many thanks for the welcome.

Unfortunately, I don't know what BWM or VM stand for. (I have the same problem with my other half as he's ex forces and constantly peppers his conversation with random letters expecting everyone to understand!! )

The medal card only has M/353111 (no M1 or M2 etc..), and unfortunately I only can find his Pension record, not his service record.

I didn't know about ASC being employed by RA to be drivers. That might be what he was.

My other half says MT ASC was Motorized Transport Army Service Corps.

Someone in the family said he was a muleteer (but that might have been when he was in the RHA TF).

Well, I'm learning new things all the time and I'm very grateful to all the knowledgeable people who help me on the way.

Best wishes,

Jo

[jochakram]

Jo,

I have found that soon after mobilization the TF RHA dispensed with some long serving members without good reason.

"Medically unfit" was the usual excuse but never substantiated with hard medical evidence. The powers that be just though

they should no longer be in the unit now that war was declared.

Your great grandfather obviously took a step back but then realised he could enlist again in another unit.

The conscription of men started in 1916 so this is another aspect to factor in.

Whilst in the ASC it looks like he served in the EEF (Egyptian Expeditionary Force). MT can be Mechanical Transport.

Others may come forward to offer guidance as to where the MT ASC Base Depot was in Egypt.

Hi David,

Wow, that seems very unfair - to dispense with them for no good reason. Great Grandpa wasn't a big man and he was always old to me, but he certainly didn't seem unfit!

I will have have to look up the EEF and see what they did.

Thank you so much for the information about why he might have been discharged medically unfit but still joined the regular army!

Everyone is so helpful, I really appreciate it.

Best wishes,

Jo in Cyprus

[27thBN]

Jo BWM is british war medal .VM Is victory medal . I was wondering if you have his medals do they have M2 etc on them .quite a lot of asc men were used by the RA as drivers especially on the big guns . Hence his address having M T on it Motor transport of asc .MC

[Peridot]

Looks a lateish number Jo and probably 1917. Some pre-fixes were abandoned in November 1916 and not sure if M2 was one of them-certainly DM2 was.

Peridot

[headgardener]

I have found that soon after mobilization the TF RHA dispensed with some long serving members without good reason.

"Medically unfit" was the usual excuse but never substantiated with hard medical evidence. The powers that be just though

they should no longer be in the unit now that war was declared.

I think that this applies to most TF units, regardless whether corps or regiment. The pre-war establishment was not intended for overseas service, and many men had been with their units since their inception in '08, or even with the pre Haldane reform Volunteers. So they may have been deemed to have be less than perfectly fit for the perceived rigours of overseas service. Some may have been regarded as simply 'serving their time' until the period of time that they had signed up for expired.

The army also had an enormous influx of new recruits during those early weeks of the war, so I think the authorities also felt that they could pick and choose who they wanted (or didn't want). Remember also that the war was not thought likely to last for long, so the 'powers that be' may initially have been relatively profligate with men who they would soon come to realise they were actually very much need in of. I've come across lots of men who were discharged, as you say, for really only very minor reasons during those early days.

[David Porter]

Wow, that seems very unfair - to dispense with them for no good reason. Great Grandpa wasn't a big man and he was always old to me, but he certainly didn't seem unfit!

Perhaps I'm being a bit unfair to the officers here. It is quite possible that your great grandfather refused to sign the Imperial Service Obligation or that his occupation precluded him from being mobilised with his unit. In the case of Somerset RHA there were 55 men who refused to sign the Imperial Service Obligation so 55 new recruits were eventually brought in to replace them. One has to bear in mind that this was also harvest time and a lot of men couldn't be spared. It does look increasingly like 2 years were to elapse before he was called up.

EDIT: Just read headgardener's contribution above which puts across the situation even better than I did.

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Jo

We are looking at two separate units here: Notts Battery RHA (TF) and an ASC Mechanical Transport Company. ASC men working as drivers with the artillery did not wear the gunners' cap badge.

The Base Dept MT, Egyptian Expeditionary Force, otherwise 500 Company ASC, was based at Alexandria. As well as handling incoming reinforcements and posting them to units, the depot would have undertaken vehicle repairs and maintenance.

It is just possible that his "medical discharge" from the RHA might simply mean he had grown too big. The RHA needed small, wiry men able to handle horses (think of jockeys), or perhaps he received a wound or other injury which meant he could only be employed in a relatively static job, such as being a mechanic at the Base Depot.

Ron

[r larkin]

982 Coy ASC formed 7-8-1917 embarked at Southampton on 23-8-1917 and was allotted to 420 Siege Battery, Egypt.

963 Coy ASC formed 21-7-1917 embarked 10-7-1917 and was allotted to 378 Siege Battery, Egypt

956 Coy ASC formed 21-5-1917 as Ford Van Company, Palestine

955, 952, 907 Coys ASC appear to have been EEF

905/906/1009 Coys ASC appear to have merged into one company for Ammunition and General Supplies, Palestine and Syria.

[jochakram]

Jo BWM is british war medal .VM Is victory medal . I was wondering if you have his medals do they have M2 etc on them .quite a lot of asc men were used by the RA as drivers especially on the big guns . Hence his address having M T on it Motor transport of asc .MC

Dear MC,

Many thanks for the translation of letters! I really should have guessed them!

Unfortunately, I don't have his medals - I did ask my grandmother before she died, but she didn't know where they were either. None of the family do. Perhaps he didn't collect them? I'll have to ask again.

thanks again.

Jo

Looks a lateish number Jo and probably 1917. Some pre-fixes were abandoned in November 1916 and not sure if M2 was one of them-certainly DM2 was.

Peridot

Thanks Peridot - that's useful to know. I'll bear it in mind while I'm searching for more info.

best wishes,

Jo

[jochakram]

Hi headgardener & David,

Many thanks for your input and info. It all helps me to build up a picture of my great grandfathers service and past. I never realised how complicated it might all be!

best wishes,

Jo

[jochakram]

Hello Jo

We are looking at two separate units here: Notts Battery RHA (TF) and an ASC Mechanical Transport Company. ASC men working as drivers with the artillery did not wear the gunners' cap badge.

The Base Dept MT, Egyptian Expeditionary Force, otherwise 500 Company ASC, was based at Alexandria. As well as handling incoming reinforcements and posting them to units, the depot would have undertaken vehicle repairs and maintenance.

It is just possible that his "medical discharge" from the RHA might simply mean he had grown too big. The RHA needed small, wiry men able to handle horses (think of jockeys), or perhaps he received a wound or other injury which meant he could only be employed in a relatively static job, such as being a mechanic at the Base Depot.

Ron

Dear Ron,

I'm beginning to believe that the photo I have may have been take before the war during his Territorial service with the RHA, he seems pretty young in it.

Many thanks for the company number for the Base Depot in Egypt, and what they would have done. Now, I'm really building a picture of where he was and what he was doing.

I have to say though, that great grandpa Harry was a small wiry bloke and not a big man, so I doubt that would have been the reason for getting rid of him. I think his 4 years were almost up, it says he'd done 3 years and 96 days. He might have been injured, but it says he was discharged under Para 156/11 T.F.R. (again I think those are the initials), and I don't know what that might mean.

I'm so very grateful for all the kind help been given to me about this subject as I am completely clueless at the moment.

Many thanks once again to all,

Best wishes,

Jo in hot & humid Cyprus

982 Coy ASC formed 7-8-1917 embarked at Southampton on 23-8-1917 and was allotted to 420 Siege Battery, Egypt.

963 Coy ASC formed 21-7-1917 embarked 10-7-1917 and was allotted to 378 Siege Battery, Egypt

956 Coy ASC formed 21-5-1917 as Ford Van Company, Palestine

955, 952, 907 Coys ASC appear to have been EEF

905/906/1009 Coys ASC appear to have merged into one company for Ammunition and General Supplies, Palestine and Syria.

Many thanks for the above info - He could have been in any of the Egypt companies. I wonder if I'll ever know for sure!

Best wishes,

Jo

[Ron Clifton]

Jo

TFR means Territorial Force Regulations. The comparable provision for Regular soldiers was Para 392(xvi) if King's Regulations (KR).

If his medal index card does not show his membership of RHA then he did not serve overseas with that unit. It looks increasingly likely that he was discharged slightly early from the TF but was accepted later, either as a volunteer or under conscription, into the wartime Army. After August 1914 the Army was reluctant to turn down those willing to serve and reasonably fit, which might explain why they accepted him despite a possible health problem.

He might possibly have been in "category B" which denotes men fit for service abroad but not in the front line. This would disqualify him from an RHA battery but might well allow him to drive a supply lorry or be a mechanic.

Good luck with your research. You know where to come if you get stuck!

Ron