redbarchetta Posted 28 May , 2004 Share Posted 28 May , 2004 With the good weather here, Ebay is currently flooded with 'genuine battlefield relics', freshly dug up. What is the Forum line on this sort of thing ? Personally I don't really like the idea of hoards of people indiscriminately churning up what is kind of sacred ground, bearing as it does the remains of the hundreds of thousands of the missing, looking for items to wash off and post on Ebay. However posts I've read on here suggest this is some members' weekend pastime !! I imagine this has been discussed before, but I couldn't seem to find anything, so figured I'd start a new thread !!! To bring some relevance to 2004, there was an article in The Times this week about the state of the remains of the Titanic, and how this has been stripped of moveable items by divers since its discovery. Is there a parallel here ? I guess what I'm asking is "Does this constitute desecration ?"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 28 May , 2004 Share Posted 28 May , 2004 imagine this has been discussed before, but I couldn't seem to find anything, so figured I'd start a new thread !!! It is an old favourite of the forum! It should show up in a search as it has been 'debated' many a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 28 May , 2004 Share Posted 28 May , 2004 What is a "bad" relic, what is a "good" relic. To me if something non personal, like a canteen is found during costruction works or ploughing then it is not bad at all to pick it up. As long there is no "pilage" of the battlefields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcderms Posted 28 May , 2004 Share Posted 28 May , 2004 I agree. I'd rather see an old tin hat being part of a treasured collection than being chucked on the scrap heap. As for 'good' or 'bad' I do get a little uncomfortable when I see German grave markers or dog tags up for sale but then again I suppose that every button or webbing strap could be a soldier... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 28 May , 2004 Share Posted 28 May , 2004 As for 'good' or 'bad' I do get a little uncomfortable when I see German grave markers or dog tags up for sale A little point about the dog-tags that you see for sale - even if they are (or are claimed to be) "dug-up", it's pretty uncommon that it turns out to belong to a soldier who was killed. Over the past two years, I made a point of buying as many "dug-up" German ID discs (the "named" 1915,16 and 17 patterns - easier to research!) that I could. Of the 50 or 60 or so of these disks that I obtained during this period, only one (possibly two, but the second casualty is buried in the wrong place for his unit on his date of death) of them turns out to have belonged to a soldier who had died. ID tags were easily lost/discarded/duplicated/replaced, so the finding of one of these doesn't necessarily mean that the soldier was a casualty. Dave. (PS, when I was a kid, my mother didn't mind what I came back with from my battlefield "wanders" (within reason!!!), so long as it wasn't a boot! She reasoned that the last thing an uninjured soldier in a battle zone would discard was his boots. Fair point, I suppose!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKY Posted 29 May , 2004 Share Posted 29 May , 2004 I go to the Somme area twice a year and the main reason is to I suppose soak up the atmosphere, it is hard to define why? When we walk a particular field or area we do look for items but have simple rules : no digging, never ever metal detect and respect the land. Also never pick up or move anything we cannot identify or we think may be live. I have only ever done that once and that is another story..... I have no problems picking things up but will always show respect. We often put down a poopy on a field we know of a particular casualty. If we ever found bones then we would not hesitate in contacting local police etc. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burlington Posted 29 May , 2004 Share Posted 29 May , 2004 Tony I feel exactly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 29 May , 2004 Share Posted 29 May , 2004 I have no problems picking things up but will always show respect. We often put down a poopy on a field we know of a particular casualty. If we ever found bones then we would not hesitate in contacting local police etc. Tony I understand you Tony, but often at costruction works or even elswhere in Flanders, even in my own garden, we find some bones. Sometimes it are even maybe human ones. You must understand we can not contact the police everytime we find a bone. I think nobody does that in flanders, except when it is worth reporting it, let's say when you find more than 5 or "important" remains. This sounds very sarcastics or disrespectfull, but believe me, I have a lot of respect! We need to live too, that is the vision. I personaly thing (i assume) that people like the diggers also find a lot of bones that they don't report, because it is of no "big importance" (i hope i picked the right words so that i offend nobody). I hope you can understand that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbarchetta Posted 29 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2004 I have to agree with Kirky and Tony on this, however, reflecting on Bkristof's comments I do wander whether our attitude can be compared with African farmers shooting lions - we don't like the idea, but then we aren't the ones whose livestock (and livelihood) is being eaten. There is a huge swathe of France and Belgium that I think us Brits would like preserved as a huge museum, but in reality thousands of people have to carry on their lives there. But there is a difference here, between the stuff farmers churn up with their ploughs, which I agree is better appreciated within someones collection than left on the side of a field to rust to nothing, and stuff actively dug up by metal detector fiends - that is the stuff I have a problem with. Unfortunately once removed it becomes impossible to differentiate... Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive and should just shut up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 29 May , 2004 Share Posted 29 May , 2004 no i agree... but it is for some people a harmless hobby, like looking for coins, medieval or Roman stuff, but for others, the bad guys it is a search for easy money, big profit. It is the second group who pilages graves.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbarchetta Posted 29 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2004 Maybe this is a time thing - people digging up Roman coins and trinkets seems absolutely benign to me, while digging up dog tags and shrapnel from the Somme seems ghoulish and disrespectful. Ninety years simply isn't enough time for us to detach these objects from the people who died amongst them. BK, I think you have a frighteningly cool attitude to digging up bones - while unidentifyable, they were still part of someone once. Is there no 'central repository' for this sort of thing, so at least they can be reburied alongside their comrades, albeit anonymously, but without all the palarva of involving police, CWGC inspectors etc ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 29 May , 2004 Share Posted 29 May , 2004 BK, I think you have a frighteningly cool attitude to digging up bones - while unidentifyable, they were still part of someone once. Is there no 'central repository' for this sort of thing, so at least they can be reburied alongside their comrades, albeit anonymously, but without all the palarva of involving police, CWGC inspectors etc ? I am not at all cool about it. That why i wanted to be carefull with what i said. To prevent that misunderstanding, but it happend anyhow. i personaly plced some remains on CWG myself... But i understand people who are cool on it. Not that i like it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbarchetta Posted 29 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2004 BK, out of interest, what do you have to do when you find bits of bones ? If they are quite alone, rather than part of some big new discovery ? You said you placed some stuff on CWG - what do you mean ? (And I wouldn't worry about misundertandings, I'm getting accustomed to your turn of phase now, and I'm sure everyone else here is too - your English is a damn sight better than my Flemish, or French for that matter !!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frans Posted 29 May , 2004 Share Posted 29 May , 2004 I have been a member now for about three weeks and have noticed that this subject has been discussed at length now for the second time. The rules regarding war relics are pritty clear in most west european countries- it is illegal. If there is anything offerred for sale on Ebay you think might have been obtained in this manner- do not buy it. It will stop the trade. I do know that occasionally human bones are unearthed when working the fields. But talking about it in this manner might come over as extremely insensitive. Lastly, I wore a dog tag, and this I did with a good reason. Frans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 29 May , 2004 Share Posted 29 May , 2004 BK, out of interest, what do you have to do when you find bits of bones ? If they are quite alone, rather than part of some big new discovery ? You said you placed some stuff on CWG - what do you mean ? (And I wouldn't worry about misundertandings, I'm getting accustomed to your turn of phase now, and I'm sure everyone else here is too - your English is a damn sight better than my Flemish, or French for that matter !!) i once found a few i placed them in a bag and buried them on a cemetery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 29 May , 2004 Share Posted 29 May , 2004 The rules regarding war relics are pritty clear in most west european countries- it is illegal. If there is anything offerred for sale on Ebay you think might have been obtained in this manner- do not buy it. It will stop the trade. I do know that occasionally human bones are unearthed when working the fields. But talking about it in this manner might come over as extremely insensitive. Lastly, I wore a dog tag, and this I did with a good reason. Frans i working in working your garden illegal? working the fields too? I don't thinks so.. you don't have to really dig for it. I am no digger at all, but still i find stuff. That is not illegal i think? I am insensitive, well that is a reall insult to me! Sorry! When is talking about it insensitive, be reall, please... Are professional archeologist or people like the diggers also insensitive? I don't think so. Don't judge people to fast please... People who know me well, even a few on this forum know very well that i am very sensitive. I cried several times under the menin gate while the last post sounds or bagpipes weep. talking about them is also remebering them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 29 May , 2004 Share Posted 29 May , 2004 I feel that everyone should take a step back and realize that the written word, especially in such a short message, never brings across what the spoken word and physical gestures can accomplish. Then there is the question of language. I for one am a typical American, I can speak and write in the English language but useless in all others (I can read German fairly well). When I visited France and Belgium in 1999 and 2002 I dreaded the thought of coming across any human remains during my time on the battlefields. Fortunately all that I saw were military items plowed up in local fields, the most human conected item was a small button that probably came from a shirt or possibly pants. The field looked as if it had been recently shelled considering how turned over it was. While the button was a connection to a human being there was nothing else to show who it might have been, it was not close to any other items and was buried in a tire track near the road. I do not believe that Bkristof is acting in a cold manner, instead I feel he is trying to portray the feeling that even during the most innocent actions, gardening, human remains and other materials are found. Just how these are handled is a matter that obviously differs from person to person. By burying the human remains he found instead of tossing them in a refuse heap he shows that he has a sensitivity to his finds. In my opinion, cut everyone some slack when it comes to interpreting their postings, language, words, often are read differently from person to person, country to country. I doubt any forum member would act in a ghoulish manner if they came across human remains and from what I have seen and heard they are treated with the respect they deserve. Ralph P.S. One side issue is that can anyone say with 100% certainty that any bone they find is human? I for one might recognize certain bones form the shape and size but not everyone. Just another piece of the puzzle it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 29 May , 2004 Share Posted 29 May , 2004 thanks for the support Ralph! There is someone who understands... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 29 May , 2004 Share Posted 29 May , 2004 When it comes to field walking I have the absolute same opinion like kirky. But when it comes to human remains I become allergic! Keep your fingers off these fragments! A human being is only as good as he treats his dead. I mean don't you ever collect bone fragments - this is kind of sacred stuff. I found human remains approximately 20 meters from the location my Granddad was KIA. If I imagine some creeps picking them up and put them on display or on ebay - I'd like to meet them......I am still a dangerous Hun If I find human remains like the one in the pic below, I leave them on the very spot and cover them with earth. Here they suffered, here they died, here they belong for eternity = nowhere else. I hope my opinion is more than clear and somehow acceptable to pals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 29 May , 2004 Share Posted 29 May , 2004 If I find human remains like the one in the pic below, I leave them on the very spot and cover them with earth. Here they suffered, here they died, here they belong for eternity = nowhere else. I hope my opinion is more than clear and somehow acceptable to pals! To me is bringing them to a proper cemetery, protected against nature and "bad" things, my way of bringing respect. I bring it back to the comrades, the other fallen... I respect your choise Egbert, can you understand my view? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 29 May , 2004 Share Posted 29 May , 2004 Hey kristoph, I fully respect your way how to deal with human remains - no really! I just ask you for a favour: please leave the remains of my Granddad where they are, where they belong to: very close to thousands of comrades- on a particular South Flanders field ( though most remains of Granddad are properly buried in a war grave) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 29 May , 2004 Share Posted 29 May , 2004 It is a strange subject... Leave it or remove it... i don't know what is best. But i know this for sure. We may never forget what happend and who is "behind" the findings. And that is something i think on daily. I live on Broodseinde ridge, i see it every day trough my window, i even see Celtic wood (or what is left of it). I often think on the offer people gave to make it such a nice spot today... Maybe you even can call it peacefull. We will remember them... i am sure i will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKY Posted 30 May , 2004 Share Posted 30 May , 2004 Some great stuff on this emotive subject. I have found only 2 or 3 "human" items and have never considered bringing them back. I bury them with repspect where I found them. I am not talking about loads of bones etc but a tooth or small bone. They are still sacred to me. I have heard of "collectorsd" who have teeth etc in their collectoin and I was once told of a "collector" who took home a german skeleton which is kept with his collection! He should be haunted for ever! Nearly all of the guys we have met on the fields show the same respect as all of you who have contributed to date. The ones who do not follow the code are too ashamed to comment. If you detect in France let us know why and how do you feel? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 30 May , 2004 Share Posted 30 May , 2004 What right does anyone have to walk on some farmer's land without permission and dig up or pick up stuff? Or go onto construction sites to do the same. You can dig what you like in your own garden, but not somebody else's. Also, there is nothing innocent about destroying archaeology. Private metal detectorists are a pest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 30 May , 2004 Share Posted 30 May , 2004 What right does anyone have to walk on some farmer's land without permission and dig up or pick up stuff? Or go onto construction sites to do the same. You can dig what you like in your own garden, but not somebody else's. Also, there is nothing innocent about destroying archaeology. Private metal detectorists are a pest. Who says that those who do don't have permission? my landlord, who is a farmer even called me to report his findings! So... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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