Motor lorries/trucks of WW1

[onetrack]

Greetings, fellow forum members! - I have a question to ask about Makes of Motor Lorries/Trucks used during WW1. I have come across earlier posts that touch on the subject, but not in any depth. The reason I ask is, someone on another forum has asked if anyone can provide any pictures of Garford motor trucks as used by Australian troops in WW1.

I cannot find anything about Garford trucks being used in WW1, except for a description of some motor lorries produced by Garford for use as water tankers by the British, about 1916.

A search of the AWM site brings up nothing related to Garford, except a few soldiers with that surname. I have found that Leyland, Albion, Thorneycroft, Karrier, Dennis, and American FWD and Peerless trucks, were used by the Allied troops. These all appear to be referred to, as "General Service Trucks" in AMF descriptions. Peerless trucks feature prominently in AWM photos, where motor trucks are pictured.

I have found that the British Military purchased 12,000 Peerless trucks in 1915, and these were apparently delivered between 1915 and 1918. I have found no record of any Garford truck purchases. However, I have found that the Liberty "B" truck, designed by the SAE & the U.S. Army Quartermaster Corps, in 1917, was produced (in identical form) by 15 different manufacturers, including Garford. I believe this may have led to the questioner thinking that Garford trucks were used by Australian troops.

A quote from the Hayes truck museum - "(When the Americans) landed in France in 1917, they scrambled for every truck available at the time. An inventory later revealed 294 different makes; of these 213 were produced in the US with 60,000 non-interchangable parts. The military realized they needed to standardize their trucks, and the Liberty Truck, or "USA Truck" was born.

The Liberty "B" truck design was initiated by one Capt W.M. Britton, of the USACE, who was on assignment with the U.S. Army Quartermaster Corps. He suggested to Quartermaster Gen. G. Henry Sharpe, that a design for a standardised truck fleet was necessary. Britton proposed a design basis, of common truck component sub-assemblies, from many different manufacturers, that would ensure total interchangeability of all parts.

Sharpe agreed, and got the SAE to draw up a formal report on truck standardisation. The SAE report was received by Sharpe, and approved by him, and forwarded to General Staff for their perusal. General Staff endorsed the proposal.

A meeting was then arranged by the SAE in July 1917, of all the nations major truck manufacturers, for them to be brought up to speed with the proposal. Capt Britton and a Maj. Charles B. Drake of the Q-Corps managed to convince all of the gathered manufacturers, of the viability of their plan.

Engineering committees were set up, and the first two trucks were produced by the Gramm-Bernstein and Selden companies. The trucks underwent extensive testing and were approved by November 1917. The first "B" trucks were produced by April 1918, and production continued until 11th November 1918. Approximately 9500 Liberty "B" trucks were produced by 15 manufacturers, and approximately 7500 were sent overseas.

However, the Liberty "B" truck program was essentially ruined by the U.S. Military's rush to join WW1 in mid-1917. In the rush to supply and equip troops, the U.S. Military promptly purchased large numbers of immediately-available commercial-design, civilian trucks, before a single Liberty "B" truck even left any of the factories.

Liberty Trucks .. http://www.s363.com/selden/liberty.html

Can anyone offer up any additional information or pictures, with particular regard to Garford Trucks in WW1?

Incidentally - whilst not really WW1 related - I found an interesting report by one Lt. Col. D.D. Eisenhower, who wrote a detailed report on the (American) Trans-Continental Motor Truck Trip, which was set up by the Rock Island Arsenal, and which ran across the U.S. from around early July 1919 to November 1919. Lt. Col. Eisenhower - who we all know otherwise, much later, as President Eisenhower (1953-1961) - was not in the least bit impressed with the dreadful quality and unreliability of the Garford trucks on this trip.

The 1919 Trans-Continental Motor Convoy .. http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/convoy.cfm

[Rockdoc]

Another make of lorry used was Packard. I have no idea how many were used nor how many were used for which purposes but they were used in Salonika as gun lorries by at least three Anti Aircraft Sections. The 3-ton GS lorry out there was usually Peerless.

Keith

[centurion]

Just a few

British built (some under license or by British subsiduaries) lorries used in WW1

6 to 15Cwt Arrol Johnson; Austin; Buick D4; Crossley; Daimler; Ford; Rolls Royce; Talbot; Wolseley

1 ton to 30cwt AEC/LGOC B; Albion A3; Autocar; Belsize; Commer Mc; Commer WP3; Daimler CB; Dennis 18; Fiat 15 ter; Garford 75; Garford 66; Gram-Bernstein W1L; Kelly Springfield K30; Kelly Springfield K31; Lancia Z; Leyland S3; Napier B62; Napier B62A; Napier B70; Packard 30cwt D; Star UE; Staker Squire; Vulcan S; Willys 65XT; Wolseley CL; Wolseley CP

2 ton (civilian impressed) Albion; Austin; Burford; Commer; Daimler; Dennis; Guu; Hallford; Karrier; Lacre; Leyland; Napier; Thornycroft

3 ton to 5 ton AEC; Albion;; Belsize; Berna; Commer; Daimler; Dennis; Fiat; Hallford; Halley; Karrier; Maudsley; Napier; Pagefield; Peerless; Seabrooke; Spa, Stevens; Staker Squire; Thornycroft; Tilling Wolseley.

USA Built lorries (trucks) used in WW1(some by non US armies)

6 cwt to 1 ton Autocar; Buick; Dodge; Federal; Ford; Garford; GMC; Hudson; Studebaker; White

30 cwt to 2 ton Attebury; Autocar; Denby; Garford; GMC; Packard; Pierce Arrow; Republic; White

3 ton and over Avery; Duplex; FWD; GMC; Jeffery Quad; Militor

[kenf48]

Can't help with the lorries but while browsing Service Records came across this driving test result.

As I recall my Class 1 feedback was a bit more extensive! Unfortunately doesn't record what vehicle he was tested on, just a lorry

Ken

[Waddell]

Can anyone offer up any additional information or pictures, with particular regard to Garford Trucks in WW1?

Welcome Onetrack,

There are a few threads mentioning these trucks-

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...howtopic=143078

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...99866&st=25

Forum member Great War Truck may be able to help you more. Once you've reached 5 posts you should be able to contact him via PM if he doesn't see this thread.

Any particular interest in the Australian usage of the trucks? There is a book that comes to mind of an Australian motor drivers time in France, will post the title if I can find it.

Regards,

Scott

[onetrack]

Thanks for the additional info, men; that's good. Scott, I have already searched this forum at length and found those threads, but thanks for the links again. There's some great photos there, but sadly, no Garford photos.

I do not have any idea why the person asking about Garfords was interested in them. I'd hazard a guess that it's due to interest in a WW1 ancestors life story, who could possibly have recorded that he drove a Garford. I couldn't imagine that anyone in Australia has found the remains of a WW1 Garford truck, and is interested in restoring it, but anything's possible.

Scott, I would be interested in the title of that book.

I did find an interesting book called "The United States Army and the Motor Truck: A case study in standardisation", by Marc K. Blackburn, an American professor who lectures about transportation. This book relates the story of the early U.S. Army transportation problems, and how the Liberty "B" truck came about.

[phil@basildon]

There is or was a WW1 Garford lorry preserved in the UK. I am unable to check for you at the moment as I am not at home but several publications feature Garfords. You may be able to find more details on the internet.

[Great War Truck]

There is or was a WW1 Garford lorry preserved in the UK. I am unable to check for you at the moment as I am not at home but several publications feature Garfords. You may be able to find more details on the internet.

There is indeed a Garford truck in the UK. I believe that it was made just post war and when i last saw it, it was a bright yellow colour. I am not aware of there being any reliability issues with Garfords.

Very interested in the driving test doccument. What a gem that is.

[sotonmate]

OneTrack

I have been reading a short history of Thorneycroft from this era and note that from the outset of war in Aug 1914 they offerred their current stock under construction at Basingstoke to the WO,were accepted and began with a first delivery of 40 lorries within a short time,being requested to deliver them to a Military Park in Kensington Gardens.

By the Armistice they had delivered 5000 lorries to the WO,for use as all forms of transport,including the bed for AA guns,and used in all terrains and theatres.

Sotonmate

[auchonvillerssomme]

No idea about lorries but heres some for the experts.

Mick

Halford?

Packard

Peerless?

[Ally Sloper]

Hello Onetrack

Have you tried the Royal Logistics Corps Museum, The Princess Royal Barracks, Blackdown Road, Camberley, Surrey, GU16 6RW, website http://www.army.mod.uk/rlc/history/348.aspx, who may be able to help you with photos of Garford trucks, because they hold some archives for the Army Service Corps.

Although a bit off subject if anyone is interested in the 7000 Dennis 3 Ton War Subsidy Lorry, which Dennis Brothers of Guildfold supplied to the army, then the Surrey History Centre at Woking has photographs, plans and a handbook for the lorry.

Ally

[phil@basildon]

Here is a list of some of the makes and numbers of 3 ton lorries in service at the armistice. This does not include impressed vehicles.

AEC (Y-Type) 5819

Commer (RC) 2303

Daimler (CB,CC,Y,) 4745

Dennis, allmost 3500 supplied.

Karrier (WDS) 1557

Leyland (RAF Type) 4721

Maudsley 1547

Thornycroft (J) 5000 supplied

Other makes (Halford, Halley, Wolseley ect.) were numbered in hundreds rather than thousands.

Interestingly enough the majority were of AEC and Daimler manufacture, these two makes sharing many components, Leyland coming third in the list. This was by virtue of AEC's moving production line, the only truck maker at that time to have such a facility, some AEC Y chassis were supplied to Daimler for them to fit their own mechanical components and radiator.

The total number of trucks of all makes held by the British army at the Armistice was 66,352. The number of trucks lost during the war is not known but the number of vehicles acquired and those remaining (where records exist) suggests an attrition rate of about 20%.

[KevinBattle]

Is this site of any help?

Garford Trucks

[Great War Truck]

The bottom one is a Seabrook. More commonly recognised in its RNAS armoured car configuration. These photos were all taken by the photographer Bert Phillips in Wells.

[RobL]

The motorcycle is a Douglas 2 3/4hp, if anyone's interested

[Retlaw]

Can't help with the lorries but while browsing Service Records came across this driving test result.

As I recall my Class 1 feedback was a bit more extensive! Unfortunately doesn't record what vehicle he was tested on, just a lorry

Ken

Found this in one mans record, names some of the vehicles he was tested on if its any help.

Retlaw.

[Great War Truck]

Thats very interesting too. I find it unusual that he has been tested on six very similar trucks (Wolseley, Locomobile, Pierce Arrow, Peerless, Daimler and Maudslay) of which the control layout would be very much the same. It would be like taking your driving test today in six very similar cars.

Thanks

[r larkin]

Thats very interesting too. I find it unusual that he has been tested on six very similar trucks (Wolseley, Locomobile, Pierce Arrow, Peerless, Daimler and Maudslay) of which the control layout would be very much the same. It would be like taking your driving test today in six very similar cars.

Thanks

Hounslow had a huge number of different makes and passed out hundreds of trainees every week. My gut feeling is that it would have been impossible to allocate individual trainees to individual makes. It's more likely that the make each trainee drove would have been pot luck on a daily basis. There was however a requirement for a trainee to prove proficient on at least 3 different makes before passing out. The number of makes this trainee was passed out on does seem unusual though, I'd have thought that the need for drivers meant that once the minimum standard had been reached they were moved on. Once trainees had passed out of Hounslow they were sent to Home Front Companies who acted as a finishing school before they were sent abroad. The controls on all of the makes qualifying for the Subsidy Scheme would have been pretty much the same as the MTC determined the layout of controls in the Subsidy Model specification.

[Peridot]

Hi onetrack

Found a Garford pic-endearingly ugly thing-if you still want it then send me your-email address and I'll send it to you. Won't upload on here.

Peridot

[BSM]

Thought it might be a good idea to clarify a couple of points. First of all, a great response thank you and particularly the 3 images from Auchonvillerssom. A compatriot (onetrack) and I were discussing a question re "Garford Box Cars" on a relatively new MVCA (Military Vehicle Collectors of Australia) forum. The term "Box Car" is the key element to the question. This terminology appears in both British and AIF archival material. I don't have a specific definition and no doubt the lines would be blurred between what is a Box Car and what is a light weight or 30cwt. lorry. Quickest likeness would be to remove the medical bits from an Ambulance and you have a Box Car. This is not to be confused with what the RFC/AFC call a light tender which was usually a Crossley. To make things interesting there were also Crossley Box cars used by other Military Units.

The AIF were issued with a number of Box Cars over the years on the Western Front however in 1918 they took on charge 3 Garford Box Cars among other types for the MT Companies and it was this example we were interested in. Images of a Ford and a RR Box Cars are enclosed. Also enclosed is a chassis drawing of a later (1920/22) 1.25 ton Garford which would have been similar to the style of chassis used. Regards....Rod

[BSM]

No idea about lorries but heres some for the experts.

Mick

Halford?

Packard

Peerless?

Nice images Mick....and yes the first is a Hallford....your second vehicle, the Packard ASC - BUL - 2880 has featured in another photograph I have seen with only one soldier in frame...currently in the Michael Young Collection.....and I don't think we would argue with Tim re the Seabrook at this point in time.....Regards....Rod

[auchonvillerssomme]

heres some more.

2

3

4

[auchonvillerssomme]

5

6

[Runflat]

Following information obtained recently, I belive the "Seabrook" to be a Romar.

Auchonvillerssom - please only post pictures that you own or have permission to post.

[Waddell]

The AIF were issued with a number of Box Cars over the years on the Western Front however in 1918 they took on charge 3 Garford Box Cars among other types for the MT Companies and it was this example we were interested in. Images of a Ford and a RR Box Cars are enclosed. Also enclosed is a chassis drawing of a later (1920/22) 1.25 ton Garford which would have been similar to the style of chassis used. Regards....Rod

Rod,

Just a point about that photo of the "Rolls Royce" at Sausage Valley, it has been incorrectly identified as a Rolls Royce Phantom by the AWM and has appeared in one book named as such. The Phantom I was produced in the mid-1920's. I'm not certain it is a Rolls as the bonnet length looks too short.

I have not come across the Box Car terminology with vintage cars. I do note that the website below has a photo of a Rolls with similar bodywork shown in the AWM photo and is designated a Military Truck. A reference is also supplied from a Rolls and Bentley book.

http://www.oldwoodies.com/gallery-military1.htm

I don't know if that is of any help, but I thought I would point out the error in the photo caption.

Scott