SDGW/ODGW look up

[Guest J.Woodward]

Would any kind soul with the luck to possess SDGW and/or ODGW possibly do me a huge favour and have a look for the following names and their date of deaths and in the case of SDGW their place of enlistment etc

G.H.B.Bullen

E.F.Congden

J.A.H.Dancell

W.A.Poole

H.Hoyle

H.Lilley

L..E.Wheeler

They are all on the University of Bristol Roll of Honour and despite repeated efforts CWGC is unable to answer the call, as it were, all help very gratefully received

Thank in advance

Joe

[CROONAERT]

Joe.

Disappointing results, I'm afraid...

Bullen - no data

Congden - no data

Dancell - no data

Poole - KIA 23.4.17, Born and resided in Pickering, enlisted in Malton.

Hoyle - 21 possibilities (do you have any more info?)

Lilley - 15 possibilities ( ditto )

Wheeler - KIA 26.10.17, Born and enlisted in Southampton.

Dave.

[David_Bluestein]

I had a look around, and not much luck. Here's what I found:

H. Hoyle:

2/Lieut. Harold HOYLE 7th Bn. Loyal North Lancs. KIA 23/07/16

W.A. Poole:

Lots of W. Poole. in SDGW. None with the 'A'. Two Poole Officers, none with matching initials.

H. Lilley:

Lots of OR's by this name.

L.E. Wheeler:

291049 Pte. Lawrence Edward Wheeler

9th Bn. Devonshire Regt.

KIA 26/10/17

Dont know if these are who you are looking for?

Good luck in your continued searches,

David

Canada

[chris.wight]

Bullen - CWGC does list a George B. Bullen, Lance-Cpl with the Gloucestershire Regiment, died 21.07.16. Possibly the H. was omitted?

Poole - CWGC lists two with the BEF - one William Allanson as mentioned by CROONAERT, a Private in the Yorkshire Regiment; the other William Ambrose, Lance-Cpl with Leicestershire Regiment, died 31.03.18

Hoyle - CWGC does give many Hoyles but there is one H. Hoyle, died 30.09.18, Private in the Devonshire Regiment who could be your man?

Wheeler - CWGC gives two but again I think this one, Private Lawrence Edward, died 26.10.17, with the Devonshire Regiment could be your man.

[Terry Denham]

CWGC does give several examples which match the above names. Do you have any more info?

[john kemp]

I have the SDGW cd and I was surprised that many details do not match those

shown on the CWGC website.

[Terry Denham]

John

Not surprising really. Both databases were produced from different military sources by different people at different times and for different purposes.

Most CWGC entries were verified by n-o-k - SDGW's were not.

SDGW is not a complete record of UK army casualties and neither source is 100% accurate. They never could be. Both sets of records have undergone several phases of 're-constitution' and being rewritten.

The fun is sorting out which is correct! In my experience, CWGC has the edge.

[Steve Bramley]

Hi Joe,

Not 100% but;

from SDGW:

George Brook Bullen 2898, 1/6th Glos. b. Teignmouth e. Bristol d.o.d. 21.7.16 K.I.A.

Ernest Frederick Congd(o)n 410, N.Somerset Yeomanry. b St Michaels and all Angels Bristol e. Bristol r. Andover Hants. d.o.d. 17.11.14 K.I.A.

John Arthur Helton Dan(i)ell 322308 (Sgt) RGA (Duke of Cornwalls) RGA TF b. Westbury Bristol e.Bristol d.o.d. 1/7/16 K.I.A.

Herbert Henry Hoy(al) 10835 (L/Cpl) 6th Somerset Light Infantry. b. Redcliffe Bristol e. Bristol d.o.d. 22.8.17 K.I.A.

(Amazing how many Hoyles on SDGW are from Lancashire and Yorkshire out of 129 men only 5 southerners, so i'd go for the other spelling!)

Best Guesses:

Walter Harry Lill(ie) 29574 5th Wiltshire b. New Cross Surrey e. St Pauls (london) r. Clerkenwell d.o.d. 19.7.18 Died Mesopotamia (Formerly 7124 Somerset Light Infantry) None born, enlisted or residing in Bristol.

There are 8 Wheelers enlisted in Bristol, none however with the initials L or E. I cannot think of any other variation of the spelling of this surname.

There are 17 Pooles who enlisted in Bristol. 4 with first initial 'A', 2 with 'W'. None with W.A. or A.W. How about;

William Poole 16318 1st Somerset L.I. b. Elberton Glos e. Bristol r. Elberton d.o.d. 4.10.17 K.I.A.

Not sure if any of the above are your men, but hope this gives some clues,

Regards,

Steve.

[Steve Bramley]

There is also a:

Dvr William Henry Poole b. e. Cardiff (RHA RFA) An A and H could easily be misinterpreted in a handwritten document?

Steve.

For Wheeler, how about Weller or even Wheller?

[Guest Pete Wood]

I would find out when the roll of honour was carried out.

There is a fair chance that these men died of war related injuries after the CWGC cut-off date (in 1920), but the university accpeted that these men 'deserved' to be mentioned on the roll.

I am sure that the university would have got the names correct of its former pupils. However I do like Steve's alternative spellings, which probably all deserve further investigation.

Have you checked the MICs to see if soldiers with these names and initials actually served....?? Don't forget to check the RFC/RAF, Aussie, NZ and Canadian records too.

Isn't it also quite likely that, as former university students, these men would often have been officers....??

[Guest J.Woodward]

Gosh! Thanks for the superbly quick response chaps, a great help and I shall begin to sift through the info you have so kindly supplied. As you can see the names are all reasonably common and it is tricky to find the correct match, at the moment I'm digging my way through the local newspapers to see if any match so the date of deaths will be a great help.

Racing Teapots - you could well have a point with the cut of date, one man recorded, Flying Officer Henry Charles Edward Bockett-Pugh DFC died on the 22nd September 1920, so that could be an issue to follow up. As to the spellings I have already come across a number of minor mistakes - middle names mispelt or missed out, and even middle names being used as forenames - so that is a good possibility. Indeed most of the men were officers, out of the 156 names recorded of those I am certain of 55 are 2nd Lts, 29 Lts, 18 Capts, 4 Majors and 2 Lt Cols. However there are also a number, mainly early in the war, who enlisted in 1914 or were Terriers who fought and died in the ranks. There are also a significant number of University staff, porters, clerks, cooks etc who are recorded and these, to a man, served in the ranks.

One possibility that does occur to me is that some of these men could possibly be French. I have already found one, Paul Humblot, through the 1901 census and French records who died with the 45th IR in 1918. Do you think this could be an option with any of the remaining names, English as they may sound?

Thanks again for your help chaps

Joe

[Terry Denham]

Sorry to have to correct you RT but the CWGC cut off date is 31 August 1921 NOT 1920.

[Guest Pete Wood]

Joe, I apologise for the duff info. I hope you have seen this in time, and that my 'typo' hadn't raised your hopes too much.

Terry, thanks for the correction - and for your patience. It's not the first time I have stated 1920, instead of 1921.....

[christine liava'a]

None of them are in the NZEF CD

[Guest J.Woodward]

Thanks Christine

didn't think any were NZ, remarkably apart from the one Frenchman already mentioned all served in British units, despite some having parents overseas.

RT - no worries, only just seen the post!!

thanks again, will keep searching

Joe

[Guest J.Woodward]

Just searched the medal index cards for Dancell - no result. Looks increasingly likely that Steves suggestion of a misspelling of Daniell could be right. Odd though that the University should make such a mistake?

[hmsk212]

Just searched the medal index cards for Dancell - no result. Looks increasingly likely that Steves suggestion of a misspelling of Daniell could be right.

Lots of the "D's" are still missing from the on-line mics so the only way to be sure that Dancell does not exist is to physically check the mics at Kew. The same goes for all of the other suggested name changes.

Steve

[Jock Bruce]

John,

there are only 3 male Dancells in the 1901 census, none with initial J, all living in Colchester and all probably too old for WW1.

Jock

[Guest J.Woodward]

Thanks chaps. Now for a very embarrasing revelation. I have just had a good hard look at my original notes form the memorial. My writing is messy at the best of times and surrounding by crossings out and associated scribbles it is even worse. I noticed that under a scribble above the name of Dancell there seems to be a dot, the c also appears to be reasonably straight - hey presto Dancell becomes Daniell and Steve is spot on.

A case I think of not seeing the wood for the trees!! I made the mistake early on and never spotted it and ever since have been digging myself in further and further. Thanks to you all the problem is solved. Might have made to Oz otherwise!

I hasten to add that under rigorous scrutiny all the other names remain correct and still AWOL!!!!!!!

Joe

[Steve Bramley]

Joe,

Easily done

Re: Daniell, i typed in J A H in the initial space only on SDGW. Only 13 men came up and one was called Daniell and he was also the only one from Bristol.

I go with your 'University Staff' theory for some of these men also.

If you made a mistake jotting down the names from the memorial what about the Mason or Woodcarver? Was he using a handwritten list to work from? Or the originator of the list, how was his pronunciation? Take Congde(o)n for example. We in the North (or most of us!) would miss out the e and the o when pronouncing the name...i.e. Congdn.

And I've just tested another theory on SDGW. There are 105 ROYLE's, amazingly about 90% are from the North, about 65% of these from Lancashire.

There are 15 ROYALS only 3 of which come from the North...two Lancastrian 'toffs' and a posh scot from Ayr (a bit like Jock Bruce )

I've just got a hunch about Bullen! (lot of help that is eh!)

Re: Lill(ie) names/location theory seems to go the other way on this one!! Seems to be a Northumbrian spelling!!! I went for the Somerset Light Infantry connection on this one.

Good fun this innit.

Cheers,

Steve.

Only joking Jock.