My own Interests in Mespot Campaign

[Neil Clark]

I just wanted to register here my interest in the activities of -

5th Battalion, The Buffs (East Kent Regiment)

2nd Battalion, Royal West Kent Regiment

The 5th Buffs were part of the Tigris Corps (35th Indian Infantry Brigade). They were an Ashford based T/F unit.

The 2nd West Kent's were captured when Kut fell and many men went into Brutal Turk captivity.

Anyone wishing to discuss this can email me here - clarkneil@live.co.uk

[ddycher]

Neil

I have a passing interest in the 5th Buffs following drafts from the Wessex Division in India end of 1915 / early 1916. There are some ref's to the Buff's activities in the first half of 1916 in Stanley Goodland 's (1/5th Somersets att'd) letters from "Engaged in War". If you have not seen this would be happy to transcribe for you.

Regards

Dave

[Jonathan Saunders]

Neil - Im sure you are aware of this but just in case ... only B & D Companies of 2/RWK were present when Kut fell. I think A & C were at Nasiriya.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[Chris Anderson]

Hi Neil:

My grandfather served in the 2nd RWK. He says he was taken POW but that it was in Germany. (I have my doubts). Do you know if anyone has a list of names of the POWs taken at Kut?

Many thanks,

Chris

[Jonathan Saunders]

Hi Neil: My grandfather served in the 2nd RWK. He says he was taken POW but that it was in Germany. (I have my doubts). Do you know if anyone has a list of names of the POWs taken at Kut? Many thanks, Chris

Hi Chris - I have a reasonably complete list (no guarantee) of 2/RWK that were captured at Kut. Can you give your grandfather's details and I will take a look. Regards, Jonathan S

[Chris Anderson]

Hi Jonathan:

Thanks for the reply.

Private Charles Flowers, L/10809. Discharge papers say only 2nd Battaltion, May 31, 1915 to October 15, 1920. MIC doesn't say which battalion, but I have someone looking into the medal roll. He was wounded twice. Gave the army a birthdate of 1896, but it was really 1901.

He claims he was taken POW in Germany, since he tried to escape and was shot in the leg by an older German guard who took pity on him. The guard then carried him back into the camp. He also related that there was a German civilian working at the camp and my mother was named after her.

Was it possible for German guards to be at some Turkish POW camps? I'm guessing 1) His memory was not all that keen, or 2) He was really there and masked the brutal truth with another story.

Does all of that sound reasonable, or am I just grasping at straws here?

Many thanks,

Chris

[Jonathan Saunders]

Chris,

I also have the medal roll and looked there first. Your grandfather would have seen some action ... but not against Turkey. The medal roll gives his service as 8 Bn, 11 Bn, 10 Bn.

There are unit histories for both 8 and 11 Bn. He was most likely transferred to 10 Bn when the 11 Bn had to be disbanded when the Brigades were reduced to 3 battalions in early 1918.

The number L/10809, suggests an early-ish 1915 attestation (probably the 31/5/1915 date you refer to). He doesnt appear on the 1915 Star medal roll so probably went out to F&F in early 1916, in part to reconstitute the 8 Bn that had been decimated at Loos, and also in preparation for the forthcoming Somme offensive (which 8 Bn became active in in August 1916).

You say he was wounded twice and quite possibly the transfer to 11 Bn was after he had recovered from one of these wounds. It sounds as if he subsequently became a prisoner in Germany during the German 1918 offensives (because he was serving with 10 Bn). Obviously you have been confused as from the information you had you associated his service with 2 Bn in Mesopotamia against the Turks. So what I mean by this is that you have no reason to doubt what he told you in relation to being a POW in Germany.

I have been thinking of the reference to 2 Bn that you made. His number prefix being "L", signifies a regular army attestation (ie. for 5 and 7 years, as opposed to the duration of the war. I would guess that he was assigned for 2 Bn on attestation but following completion of his training was sent to F&F and posted/attached to 8 Bn (rather than sent to 2 Bn in Mesop). Following his repatriation, 10 Bn had probably been disbanded and he joined his "parent" unit, the 2 Bn, to complete his 5 years service with the colours (and then 7 with the Reserve). This roughly tallys with the 31/5/1915 - 15/10/1920 dates you gave for his service.

Of course this is partly guess work on my part and I cant guarantee this is what actually happened. Do you have any more information that might help pin it down any more? Or a uniform photo of him?

Regards,

Jonathan S

[Chris Anderson]

Thanks very much Jonathan. I have been away and didn't get a chance to reply earlier. It would seem that personnel could transfer from within a regiment, and unless you have their service record, the "parent" unit/battalion only will show on the discharge certificate.

My grandfather's brother served with the Cameron Highlanders, then the Royal Engineers, then the Machine Gun Company, all with seperate regimental numbers.

Would I be correct in assuming this?

Many thanks again,

Chris

[Jonathan Saunders]

If you changed regiment or Corps then you would receive a new number as each regiment had its own numbering system. I think Charles Flowers was fortunate that when his transfer out of the 8th Bn took place, that he at least stayed with his Regiment. Many other returning casualties or replacements sent out to a War Theatre were re-badged to another Unit.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[Chris Anderson]

It's mind boggling how the army kept track of everyone.

My other grandfather served with the 190th Overseas Battalion, CEF being transferred to the 90th Royal Winnipeg Rifles.

A great-grandfather was with the 45th Battery Royal Canadian Horse Artillery, then transferred to the 3rd Canadian Divisional Ammunition Column. He was killed in action at age 50 while digging a gun pit. Did drivers help with that sort of thing? Did war diaries always state when a unit was under attack? There is no mention of it in the 3rd CDAC's, so I am a little confused as to how one could get killed digging a gun pit. What exactly is a gun pit anyway? (Please excuse my ignorance; I was five years reserve navy and don't know army matters at all).

Chris

[Jonathan Saunders]

<BR>It's mind boggling how the army kept track of everyone. My other grandfather served with the 190th Overseas Battalion, CEF being transferred to the 90th Royal Winnipeg Rifles. A great-grandfather was with the 45th Battery Royal Canadian Horse Artillery, then transferred to the 3rd Canadian Divisional Ammunition Column. He was killed in action at age 50 while digging a gun pit. Did drivers help with that sort of thing? Did war diaries always state when a unit was under attack? There is no mention of it in the 3rd CDAC's, so I am a little confused as to how one could get killed digging a gun pit. What exactly is a gun pit anyway? (Please excuse my ignorance; I was five years reserve navy and don't know army matters at all). Chris <BR>

<BR><BR><BR>My view is the gun pit would be dug to offer some stability (flat floor), protection (sand bagging) and restrict enemy observation. An R.A. Driver would do as he was told, the army was never one for having soldiers swanning around doing nothing when wholes could be dug. <BR><BR><BR>Does his file say how he was killed? Shrapnel or gas shell would be my guess, or accident during the construction of the pit but that is really unlikely? War Diaries are as detailed as the man that wrote them thought they should be. Some are written up as a work of art and others were obviously considered a chore to complete. <BR><BR>Regards, <BR><BR>Jonathan S <BR><BR><BR>ps - you may want to start a new thread with a specific title as that will attract the views of others with more knowledge than me in this area. [sorry but I edited to add the ps and the format has just gone mad]!