Imperial bayonets

[kmad]

Hi All

I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder and or the collector concerned so I am just looking for opinions on rareity, desireability and obtainability on a few bayonets

I have 99% made up my mind but just looking for confirmation

I have option on the following 4 German bayonets all in v good condition

in order of my preference

1) 1884/98 sawback in scabard with frog

2) 1898 quillback first pattern one piece grip in fully intact all stitching complete leather scabard (regimentaly marked on crosspiece)

3)1898/05 "butcher" sawback removed in metal scabard

4) ersatz (standard enough one 12inch straight blade) in metal scabard

I can switch between items 3 and 4 but is it the correct thing to do, price will not vairy much either way but i can't stretch to the 4 of them

with the ersatz type there seems to be so so many it is pointless/very expensive trying to collect them all with their little differences so just a few examples is enough so i feel a saw back removed is the right one to go for, i have the saw and plain of both first and second butchers already

would you agree on my top 3?

are they desireable in your mind

best regards

ken

[shippingsteel]

Everyone will have their own particular views on this, but in my mind the Seitengewehr 98/05 is THE quintessential German bayonet of the GW.

In neuer art or alter art, sawback or plain, you simply can't go past a regimentally marked, Prussian issued one of these. (yes I'm drooling now.!)

These are the ones that I continue to pursue vigorously and nearly always unsuccessfully - they are very well sought after indeed.

The quillbacks are quite nice but are too slender for my liking (I go for the sword bayonets in particular), and the sawback removed are what you settle for as "second best" when you can't get hold of an original. The ersatz bayonets are a completely different world on their own, with multitudes of different variations, and they are something which I have tried to stay away from.

Each individual collector usually has their own chosen direction and goals in mind, so whatever works is my advice.

Cheers, S>S

[findabetterole]

Hello Ken,

'SS' has made a few valid points about collecting the bayonets you list. Starting a collection can be rather daunting, especially when.. as with Imperial German bayonets... one starts to realise the scope of what is actually out there. Each of us who collect edged weapons has his / her own criteria for the make up of the collection as a whole and what we would like to achieve. Each of the bayonets you list have so many variations of the genre that it is vertually impossible to obtain 'one of everything!'

When I started out collecting bayonets, and 'SS' most probably did the same.... I went for one of each basic type / variation. As time went on, and my knowledge grew, I began to specialise in certain items, whilst continueing with the rest of my collection as a form of backdrop. The 'Ersatz' bayonet group is so vast... due to the many variations on a single theme... that a decent collection can be built up with only one or two types... thus collecting each variation of each type.

For most collectors obtaining one of each main variation of a type for one or two nationalities is sufficiant enough. This is also much easier on ones financial means, as the rarer of a type, or indeed.. like the Butchers Knife as an example... sometimes the main pattern, can prove quite expensive depending upon overall condition, mark, maker, and any regimental stampings upon it.

I personaly would suggest initially seeking out one of each variation of the types you list. Then, as your knowledge grows, expand and specialise.

[shippingsteel]

Each individual collector usually has their own chosen direction and goals in mind, so whatever works is my advice.

Just to follow on from what I previously said, the German bayonets come in basically 4 separate groups, from what I can see.

You have the shorter knife style bayonets, the long slender quillbacks, the "butcher" style sword bayonets, and the "ersatz" group of bayonets.

When it comes to collecting you can either go down the "scattergun" road of trying to have one of everything, or you can specialise in the one group that particularly takes your fancy. The trick is to decide where you are going beforehand, and this effort can save you a considerable amount of money - and in my mind can give you a much better and more valuable collection as an end result.

I try to focus on a particular group and then seek out a smaller number of the better condition examples to collect. Ken, in your case of already having a number of the "butcher" blades, then I would suggest going for the sawback removed version as it would help to complete the set. I would only go for the "ersatz" if you were going to follow that purchase up with more, because as we all know - once you start .....

Cheers, S>S

[kmad]

Hi Shipping Steel/Bootnecks

thank you both for your considered coments, food for taught indeed.

I have Anthony Carters book on the 98/02 and 98/05 bayonets and until i read this book i had no idea as to the amount of variations in imperial bayonets that existed, there is a life time of searching on just this one type of bayonet type. In another book (jansens notebook ) he says that there are over 80 in the ersatz series, I think carter has a book on this topic but i do not have a copy. I feel with the ersatz range an example or two of the main types would be enough to satisfy my collecting the butcher blade example would be nice to get.

I suppose if they were all easy and cheap to come by the quest would not be half as much fun

I love the historical story behind the saw back removed though as it is a blade with a real history.

lots to mull over but if these are my life problems at the moment i do not have much to worry about.

regards to you both

Ken

ps are there many fakes in the field of ersatz bayonets?

[shippingsteel]

I suppose if they were all easy and cheap to come by the quest would not be half as much fun

Glad to be of some assistance Ken, but from what you say I think you are already well on the way to a nice collection. You've done some research and have quite a bit of knowledge behind you, so now its time to go out and have some fun.! You are right in saying that it is a quest - I definitely agree that it is the challenge of the pursuit that provides at least half the enjoyment.!! Where is the battle in strolling into a dealer and plonking down wads of cash for some overpriced, over-marketed item that is described as a "rare and hard to find" example of a quite common bayonet.??

I have always gained much more satisfaction from the more battered examples that have been hard-sourced at a bargain price and then cleaned up into a presentable and very desirable piece of history - for me its always about the journey and especially the interesting history thats behind the item. The more markings that I can trace back to somewhere and someplace in time the happier I tend to be.

For example just this morning I was able to pick up a P1907 in very good condition on "the bay", just one bid at the starting price. And wait for it .... yes it was a 1915 dated example by Enfield and .... it was a NCH (no clearance hole) example, so I thought that was a nice find. Quite poorly photographed and VERY poorly described, I just don't think anyone else found it in their searches (they would have to be lucky). Don't let anyone ever tell you that you can't get good stuff at online auctions - it just takes a lot of work and research to know exactly what your looking at.

A fortnight ago I did much the same thing, picked up a very clean P1888 in fine condition for the one bid at the starting price. Once again the same story, very poorly described and would not have appeared on many searches, but a fantastic article made in 1898 by Enfield. (I just love these finds) On the other side of the ledger, it is true that sometimes I am guilty like many of paying "overs" for a particular item that I feel is a "must have". I rationalise this by saying to myself that its all about the average price at the end of the day (meanwhile I'm sweating bullets.!!)

Anyway what I'm saying is that you don't always have to pay out a fortune to assemble quite a nice collection. It might take a lot longer to source out the great finds that are within your budget, but I can assure you there is so much more satisfaction and enjoyment to be gained through this process (and many a tall story to be shared at the end of the day.!!) Happy collecting and good hunting.

PS. When it comes to ersatz - "I know nothing....nothing"

Cheers, S>S

[Grovetown]

the sawback removed are what you settle for as "second best" when you can't get hold of an original.

I'd be interested to learn what you mean by saying that the Sage abgeschliffen are 'second best' and in some way not original? They came about by the Prussian War Ministry Order of January 6th 1918, and were in response to increasing 1917 concerns about the use of the Saw Backs at the front and was subsequent to their wider spread issue to reserves and non-front line troops. Indeed, it could be argued that - for 1918 purposes - the Sage abgeschliffen is much more the front line bayonet compared to the Saws (which survived in greater numbers thanks to their use by out-of-line troops).

And, anyhow, Saw Backs in the line were only issued to about 6% of infantry strength, and NCOs mostly at that. So rarer yes, but aren't really representative of what was carried by the 'ordinary' soldier.

Cheers,

GT.

[shippingsteel]

I'd be interested to learn what you mean by saying that the Sage abgeschliffen are 'second best' and in some way not original? They came about by the Prussian War Ministry Order of January 6th 1918, and were in response to increasing 1917 concerns about the use of the Saw Backs at the front and was subsequent to their wider spread issue to reserves and non-front line troops. Indeed, it could be argued that - for 1918 purposes - the Sage abgeschliffen is much more the front line bayonet compared to the Saws (which survived in greater numbers thanks to their use by out-of-line troops).

And, anyhow, Saw Backs in the line were only issued to about 6% of infantry strength, and NCOs mostly at that. So rarer yes, but aren't really representative of what was carried by the 'ordinary' soldier.

Cheers,

GT.

As I mentioned at the very start of that post, "Everyone will have their own particular views on this", so I definitely have no argument with what you are saying. I do understand the history behind the sawback removal saga, but I think it comes back to the context of collecting value versus the historical value of an item, and this is borne out in every auction price and every dealer price list that you want to quote.

The bottom line is that regardless of historical value the sawback version is much more sought after from a collecting perspective than others that may have seen more frontline service and are consequently in a more well-used and battered state of condition. I don't always agree with this philosophy and certainly purchase far more battered items than I do "mint" or pristine examples. But the marketplace is there for all to see - it is what it is.

Regarding the sentence you quoted, that is my personal observation of the collecting market, and doesn't mean that I believe the sawback removed version to be any lesser an historical item or that it is any "less genuine". However I think most would agree that it is not in its "original" state - it has certainly been modified and regardless of whether the orders were from the War Ministry or not, the fact remains they have been modified and are no longer original.

(It is interesting that the very reason we are having this discussion is the same reason that is behind the overwhelming popularity of the sawback bayonets. It is a very controversial and sensationalised story and everyone knows about it - hence they want a piece of it - I don't have to agree with it to go along with it. Thanks for your interest.)

Cheers, S>S

[Grovetown]

I hear what you're saying, but I suppose it depends whether you are a bayonet collector or an Imperial German collector. From the first standpoint, the Saw Back is rarer, and therefore more desirable/ sought after.

If you were a collector of Imperial German material, and only had one bayonet - it would have to be one carried by 94% of the infantry; and that would not be the Saw Back (or Saw removed). After that, it would be a matter of 'completism', which is something I understand.

Best wishes,

GT.

[shippingsteel]

If you were a collector of Imperial German material, and only had one bayonet - it would have to be one carried by 94% of the infantry; and that would not be the Saw Back (or Saw removed). After that, it would be a matter of 'completism', which is something I understand.

Best wishes,

GT.

Just out of interest, as a collector of Imperial German material and staying with the theme of 'completism', would you be overly concerned with regimental markings on your one bayonet.? I would imagine that the uniform would have to be designated to represent a particular unit, but would you insist on the similarly marked bayonet, or go for "second best" and make do with a generic unmarked example of the most widely used item.?

Then again, if your 'man' or uniform was designated as a NCO surely you would have to make him come complete with his sawback bayonet.?

Isn't it strange how our views of the same topic can vary so widely depending on which angle we are looking at it from.!!??

Cheers, S>S

[kmad]

Hi Guys

Going on the stats the rarest of the 98/05 types would be the saw back removed?

only 6% were made as saw back and only a percentage of these were converted

and then if you wanted to have an example thet was more likely to have been in the treches the saw back removed would be the one you would go for as the reserve troops were less likely to have the saw back removed. am i correct in this?

then from a extreme rarity point of view a saw back removed that was then turked would be the ultimate.....

but probably also the cheapest.

I have one turked 98/05

sorry, for those wo do not know what i am talking about, a turked 98/05 is one that has been shortened by the turks after wwI and they realy did butcher the butcher blades with a grind stone, and on my example the scabard has been cut and brazed in an equally rough manner

Interesting this whole conversation.

One thing i have considered for a while is the NCO getting the saw, surely if you were in a position of authority you would not be the "sawer"?

All the best

ken

PS i am going for all the bayonets on the original list thanks to an offer on the job lot price

[Grovetown]

Going on the stats the rarest of the 98/05 types would be the saw back removed?

only 6% were made as saw back and only a percentage of these were converted

Not quite: it's not that Saw Backs were only 6% of those made; but that they were only 6% of those issued to infantry, and then mostly to NCOs. Lots of them were issued to non-infantry - pioneers, reservists etc etc.

So no: not necessarily the case that the Saw Backs are the second rarest, as loads survived in the rear echelons; but - as Saw Backs were increasingly withdrawn from the front line in 1917 - Saw Removed will possibly be rarer than Saw Backs themselves.

Best wishes,

GT.

[shippingsteel]

Probably not worth a new thread, so thought I'd piggyback onto this one, it is slightly related.!!

Recently picked up a nice 98/05 butcher blade at a militaria fair, showing a little wear but with a beautiful aged patina overall and with nice tidy grips. It is a 1917 issue date and looks to have seen a bit of use. The interesting part was that it came with a different 'makers mark' stamped on each ricasso. I was wondering how common it is to find these so marked.?

On one ricasso it shows the pyramid symbol of Gottlieb Hammesfahr, Solingen-Foche and on the other it reads Schubert und Salzer, Maschinenfabrik, Chemnitz. From what I understand it seems there was a bit of "subcontracting" going on between the different makers. Smaller manufacturers would make certain components and then send these to a "central" manufacturer for the final assembly and finishing, hence the different marks. Can anyone add anything further to this.?

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

... a turked 98/05 is one that has been shortened by the turks after wwI and they realy did butcher the butcher blades with a grind stone, and on my example the scabard has been cut and brazed in an equally rough manner...PS i am going for all the bayonets on the original list thanks to an offer on the job lot price

Not quite correct, as in my experience the Turks did a pretty neat job in adapting all of these as per the requirements - so I'd like to to just how badly yours was done! And di you et all those others???

Going back to what was said in another reply, well, yes, 6% was the official stipulation for the percentage of sawbacks per regular bayonet, but bearing in mind that - admittedly, an ad-hoc observation - so many of the danged things were brought back as souvenirs, then yes, sawback-removed examples are pretty unusual - but that's only in my experience!

[trajan]

On one ricasso it shows the pyramid symbol of Gottlieb Hammesfahr, Solingen-Foche and on the other it reads Schubert und Salzer, Maschinenfabrik, Chemnitz. From what I understand it seems there was a bit of "subcontracting" going on between the different makers. Smaller manufacturers would make certain components and then send these to a "central" manufacturer for the final assembly and finishing, hence the different marks. Can anyone add anything further to this.?

Cheers, S>S

Did you ever take this one any further SS? Couldn't find out! But yes, there were plenty of blank-blade makers and a few bayonet finishers which explains the double marking - left hand side should be maker's, right hand side the finishers. B*gg*rs me why in 1917 (and in 1918) they would want to ship Solingen blanks to Chemnitz for finishing, but maybe a case of military intelligence in operation?!

Trajan

[sawdoc34]

Kmad?

Lets pray that I can't get my pics up of either 98/05 long eared or short eared & their turk shortened counterparts as from your extreme rarity point sawback removed bayonet or it will give our mate S/S nightmates ffs