R.F.A or R.G.A?

[paul.pengelly]

On the Medal Roll card for my Great-Uncle; Henry (Charles) Pengelly it shows his Corps/Reg no as

7th Re-inf RFA,79404,GNR

RGA 210832

His service records ,from attestation in 1914,right upto reciepts for medals sent in 1920 all quote 79404,I have not seen one reference to RGA or any mention of 210832.

As usuall there are patches of "washed out writing" that are just not quite readable but he seems to have been posted to 4 DAC and then 88 A/14 BDE ? in 18/10/1917,before being admitted to AUST(ralian ?)Gen Hpl Rouen 12/7/1918 with Gun shot wounds to head,fractured skull,then onto 5th Southern Hospital Portsmouth,before being discharged 1/10/1918.Which ties in with the family rumour of him having a steel plate in his head and suffering from "funny turns".

I found 3 men out of the next 10 service numbers who were RFA and all transferred to RGA 0n 4/1/1918,but then found somebody 2 numbers before him who transferred RFA to RGA 20/3/1918,so not such a good pattern.

Anybody got the relevant War diaries,would it mention transfers in or out,or indeed injuries?any clue in the number for his SWB..RA/2443? If he went back to RFA could he have got his old number back?

Paul

[Rockdoc]

He may well have been like my Grandfather. He was 57659 in the RFA and initially kept the number after being transferred to the RGA but was renumbered to 197636 at the end of 1917. In November 1918, he was transferred back to a RFA Brigade and reverted to his old number. Because he was in the RFA when he won his 1914 Star and at the end of the War when he got his other pair all his medals show 57659.

Keith

[paul.pengelly]

He may well have been like my Grandfather. He was 57659 in the RFA and initially kept the number after being transferred to the RGA but was renumbered to 197636 at the end of 1917. In November 1918, he was transferred back to a RFA Brigade and reverted to his old number. Because he was in the RFA when he won his 1914 Star and at the end of the War when he got his other pair all his medals show 57659.

Keith

Maybe that is something they did, hopefully an expert could let us know one way or the other.

What is strange is I have just typed in Henry Charles Pengellys RFA number 79404 and found an Alfred H Calloway as well.

Attested 20/1/1915 Preston,RFA 4A Res Bde-1/7/1915,22nd Div Art-4/9/15,France-5/9/1915,Salonika-1915/18.

There are letters in his file going up to 1933 still quoting 79404.....?

Paul

[SFayers]

Hi Paul,

I certainly wouldn't call myself an expert (far from it!), but from what I've learned from others on the forum, early on in the war horse-drawn RGA batteries had drivers from the RFA attached to man the horse teams and also attached were various RFA artificers. These chaps kept their RFA numbers until later in the war (late 1917 / early 1918?) when they were offically transferred to the RGA (and I would guess received new RGA numbers - this was certainly the case for a number of the 5 Siege Battery RGA men [ex RFA] I've been researching).

However, from your initial posting, your chap seems to have been with RFA units at least up until October 1917 (4th Division Ammunition Column, and 88 Battery, 14th Brigade RFA [again 4th Division]) - so I'm afraid I can't think what, why or when the RGA connection / transfer would be.

As far as I understand it (though I may be wrong), enlistment into the RFA across the UK was broadly regional (I can't remember how many regions / districts there were off-hand - there was certainly an Eastern District) and each had it's own sequence of service numbers for allocation. Apparently this is why you may come across two or more RFA men with exactly the same service number - they simply enlisted / attested in different regions. Hopefully others on the forum can correct me if I'm wrong or at least fill you in a bit more on this!

cheers

Steve

[paul.pengelly]

Thanks for that Steve, trouble is the more I find out the more I want to know!

Henry Charles Pengelly RFA 79404 listed his occupation as carter(,but he became a gunner )he attested in Bristol 4/8/1914,

Alfred H Calloway RFA 79404,attested in Preston 20/1/1915...so yes that looks like 2 different areas..both allocating the same number.

Henry Charles Pengelly RGA 210832 number was also allocated to somebody else!,a Charles Pounsberry (probally no service record) strangely enough he had originally been in the 7th Re-Inf RFA,same as Henry.

Charles Pounsberrys RFA number was 10125,which was allocated to 3 more men!

This would seem to be a fairly common occurance which I imagine this must have created lots of problems.

As a case in point I have just read a letter in somebodys service record from RGA Artillery Record Office, Dover to RH & RFA Records ,Woolwhich which says ".will you kindly forward to this office as early as possible documents ... ...as this man should now be serving under a RGA number in accordance with War Office Letter 1265/AG6 dated 20/2/1917,please treat this as very urgent"

Was the German Army beset with such problems I wonder?

Paul

[SFayers]

Hi Paul,

As far as I'm aware the regular RGA didn't have the same regional numbering system as the RFA - at least in this respect I have never come across duplicate regular numbers with the RGA before (with the possible exception of those who had joined the RGA in the 1890's and were still in service by 1914 - but that's not the case here) (hopefully someone on the forum can put me right!).

I can't help but wonder, since there appears to be no mention of a transfer at anytime or otherwise any link to the RGA in your chap's papers, if the RGA number on his MIC might simply be a transcription error by who ever marked-up the MIC from the medal rolls? (For starters I see they got Henry's middle initial incorrect on the MIC!) To confirm the entries on the MIC I'd be interested to see Henry's entry on both the 1914 Star and BWM / VM medal rolls to see if the same RGA reference is there - it might be worth a look. Similarly his entry on the SWB roll would also be worth checking to see if an RGA reference comes up.

cheers

Steve

[kevinrowlinson]

Having seen a few thousand service records to RGA gunners I can confirm that mistakes do happen. There certainly would not have been two men with the 210832 number and suspect that the one attributed to Henry C Pengelly is a mistake. His records are certainly not easy to read, but like Steve I do not see any obvious connection to the RGA. Fortunately, for the RGA, there was only one "regular" series of numbers being used and was simply continued at the start of the war for those enlisting for the duration.

Kevin

[paul.pengelly]

Steve

I am thinking along the same lines that Henry Charles did not transfer to the RGA at all and it is just another error.

The other "holder" of the same number Charles Pounsberry,was also 7th Reinforcements and both surnames begin with P.

Wrong middle name on MIC

Qualifying date 14/9/1914,is that not a little soon if he only attested a month earlier? He did have previous military experience I know ,Queens Own R.W.Ks

No connection to the RGA in units shown (that are readable)

All correspondance from War office Quotes his "earlier" RFA number right upto 1920.

As you say it would be interesting to see his Medals/SWB roll.

Kevin

I see what you are saying that the RGA did not issue duplicate numbers .Appart from this one I have yet to come up with any others ,where as often as not when I search an RFA number I come up with more than one name.

That whole block from at least RGA 210800-900 are RFA transfers,most undated but from 13/12/17 to 4/1/18 on the ones that are dated.

Thanks Kevin/Steve