Are There Any 'Old Bill' Bus Experts On GWF?

[Buffnut453]

Resurrecting this ancient thread due to a War Diary entry that intrigues me.

A relative was the first soldier killed in action with the 1st (West Lancs) Field Coy, RE, on 30 April 1915.  On that date, his unit was directed to move from billeting at Bailleul to Dickebusch.  The War Diary notes:

Dismounted men left billet at 6am in motor buses for DICKIEBUSCH [sic] under orders received from III Corps...Buses would not proceed beyond LA CLYTTE as roads were being shelled, had to march to DICKIEBUSCH, arriving about 8am.

Given the date, would these have been B-Type buses?  Is it a fair assumption that, by late-April 1915, these would all have been repainted in khaki?

Any thoughts/insights would be very much appreciated. 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

 

On 10/08/2022 at 01:49, Buffnut453 said:

Is it a fair assumption that, by late-April 1915, these would all have been repainted in khaki?

I can't claim to be an "Old Bill" bus expert, but I can report on something that my grandfather had to say about buses, which may in part answer the question you ask about the colour in April 1915. So, he went to France for the first time on 3 May 1915, with the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers, who would later (December 1915) be in the 55th (West Lancashire), as were the 1st (West Lancs) Field Coy RE, but, with your relative being KIA on 30 April 1915, they would never have been in the same Division, or even in France at the same time.

However, on the subject of the colour of the buses, his diary entry for 6 June 1915, when his unit was still training at Arques, includes:

Saw a whole column of London Motor Omnibuses – painted grey – the first I had seen out in France. Very useful.

He mentions buses a few times in his diary, but never again mentions the colour.

Edited 18 August , 2022 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
To correct a date

[Buffnut453]

1 hour ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

 

I can't claim to be an "Old Bill" bus expert, but I can report on something that my grandfather had to say about buses, which may in part answer the question you ask about the colour in April 1915. So, he went to France for the first time on 3 May 1915, with the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers, who would later (December 1916) be in the 55th (West Lancashire), as were the 1st (West Lancs) Field Coy RE, but, with your relative being KIA on 30 April 1915, they would never have been in the same Division, or even in France at the same time.

However, on the subject of the colour of the buses, his diary entry for 6 June 1915, when his unit was still training at Arques, includes:

Saw a whole column of London Motor Omnibuses – painted grey – the first I had seen out in France. Very useful.

He mentions buses a few times in his diary, but never again mentions the colour.

Many, MANY thanks for this useful insight.  Even with all the problems inherent in eyewitness reports, your Grandfather's statement is pretty clear and he obviously felt that the grey colour was worth noting.

I have a number of relatives who served in the 55th (West Lancs) Division.  I'm fascinated by the idea that ancestors of GWF members may have served together (although that's clearly not the case here).  Every time I see your name on a GWF post, I want to reach back into my family photos and re-explore a the image of a possible Lancashire Fusilier who served in the Boer War.  Sadly, all attempts to identify him have failed to-date.

Thanks again for your help with this particular question.

Edited 11 August , 2022 by Buffnut453

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

15 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

Many, MANY thanks for this useful insight

You are welcome. Thanks due to my grandad rather than me. I'm sure the relatives of many of us on this forum, or the people in whom we are interested, knew each other, unbeknown to us. I can't help with the Boer War, though, I'm afraid - good luck with that!

[The Scorer]

I have a mouse mat from the WFA which shows a group of Scottish soldiers on and around a "London type" double decker bus.

There doesn't seem to be any identification of what the bus is or where it was, but this is a link to the item (other mouse mats are available!) - WFA Mousemat | The Western Front Association. You'll see that it's complete with a variety of adverts, including one for "My Lady's Dress" at the Royalty Theatre. This seems to be a play, later made into a film, and the Royalty Theatre seems to have been in Dean Street, Soho between 1840 and 1938, albeit under a number of names.   The bus seems to bear the name "The National xxxx Car Company Limited", although some of the words (especially the xxx) are hidden by the soldiers stood in front of the bus. I can't find a trace of a company by this name.

The bus looks like it's a LGOC B-Type and it's mostly in it's original livery, hidden though by the adverts. The lower part of the body and the wooden slats between the wheels look like they are painted brown. One other thing: on the right hand side is what I think to be the driver. He doesn't look to be in uniform and seems to be wearing a long coat with a flat cap. I wonder whether he was one of the drivers taken over to France with the buses? 

I hope that this is helpful!

[Moonraker]

Scorer, I posted about the image back in 2015: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/224168-plymouth-to-salisbury-plain-by-bus-1914/ (Some of the links have died.)

EDIT: just done a Tineye reverse image search: https://tineye.com/search/89f74b03b2d296c48a409cf55b23ece80656fef8?sort=score&order=desc&page=2  I glanced at some of the websites, but nearly all seem to relate to "stock images". There is a French one with the caption: "Ces volontaires canadiens sont en route vers un camp d’entraînement à Plymouth".

The promising "Down House nursing home Plymouth" link now leads to a tutorial website.

Edited 18 August , 2022 by Moonraker

[Moonraker]

1 hour ago, The Scorer said:

...  The bus seems to bear the name "The National xxxx Car Company Limited", although some of the words (especially the xxx) are hidden by the soldiers stood in front of the bus. I can't find a trace of a company by this name...

National Steam Car Company???  Google for details and images of some of its fleet. Obviously you're more expert about buses than I and, having been sidetracked by your post, I'll soon be running late for an appointment with my dental hygienist, so I'll leave you to explore. Looking forward to your conclusions.

[Andrew Upton]

As I was at Duxford on Monday I thought these might be of interest:

 

And:

 

Edited 18 August , 2022 by Andrew Upton

[The Scorer]

22 hours ago, Moonraker said:

National Steam Car Company???  Google for details and images of some of its fleet. Obviously you're more expert about buses than I and, having been sidetracked by your post, I'll soon be running late for an appointment with my dental hygienist, so I'll leave you to explore. Looking forward to your conclusions.

Yes, I think that you're right, as the logos on the examples are the same as the one on my mouse mat. The picture doesn't show if it is a steam vehicle, and I assumed that it was a normal petrol one, but it could well be. Thanks. 

22 hours ago, Moonraker said:

Scorer, I posted about the image back in 2015: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/224168-plymouth-to-salisbury-plain-by-bus-1914/ (Some of the links have died.)

EDIT: just done a Tineye reverse image search: https://tineye.com/search/89f74b03b2d296c48a409cf55b23ece80656fef8?sort=score&order=desc&page=2  I glanced at some of the websites, but nearly all seem to relate to "stock images". There is a French one with the caption: "Ces volontaires canadiens sont en route vers un camp d’entraînement à Plymouth".

The promising "Down House nursing home Plymouth" link now leads to a tutorial website.

Thanks; I wasn't aware of this post (or, indeed, the topic). 

[Moonraker]

I still find it difficult to accept that one or more London buses would travel the 200 miles to Plymouth and then 140 miles or more  heavily laden to the Plain, but there would have been little need for them to collect soldiers de-training at Wiltshire stations, given the short marchable  distances to camps.

The Canadian Contingent was due to disembark at Southampton but stories of U-boats meant a last-minute change for nearly every ship to Plymouth, which adds to my puzzlement about the bus. Unless it was already in the Plymouth area, its despatch from, presumably London, and its 200-mile journey to the South West would have been accomplished in extremely short order.