Turkish Stahlhelm

[centurion]

Turkish officer in 1918 in full visor helmet. Photo is from a Turkish source and refers to the model 1918 helmet.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9774/he...ficer209pd0.jpg

[SiegeGunner]

Dogras, on the other hand, loved their helmets so much that when the regiment went to Palestine, leaving the helmets behind, they wanted to replace their usual headdress with the topi.

Thereby proving that you can in fact teach an old Dogra new tricks ...

[apple]

In another thread on this forum (sorry, I can' t be bothered finding it at the moment) someone claimed that the visorless helmets the Turks had were intended for, but rejected by, the German army. Instead of leaving them sitting around in some warehouse, the Germans shipped them off, on the cheap, to the Turks.

And I don' t think that tie thing is purely Iranian. A Pakistani told me that Muslims should neither wear ties, nor do up the top button of their shirt. Forget the reason why

[Steven Broomfield]

Thereby proving that you can in fact teach an old Dogra new tricks ...

Jat's my boy.

[centurion]

And I don' t think that tie thing is purely Iranian. A Pakistani told me that Muslims should neither wear ties, nor do up the top button of their shirt. Forget the reason why

As I said earlier its because unnecessary ornamentation is forbidden and a tie is purely decorative

[centurion]

In another thread on this forum (sorry, I can' t be bothered finding it at the moment) someone claimed that the visorless helmets the Turks had were intended for, but rejected by, the German army. Instead of leaving them sitting around in some warehouse, the Germans shipped them off, on the cheap, to the Turks.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...t&p=1192264

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...t&p=1192335

In relation to Bob's query re billed caps in the Turkish Army there is a photo of a Turkish AA gun (based on a captured 75) in WW1 - the shell handlers are wearing the usual Turkish soft helmet but the two layers have peaked caps with relatively large visors.

[truthergw]

Fascinating thread. Has there been any consensus on the answer?

[bob lembke]

Just noticed this interesting thread.

I study things Ottoman a good deal, mostly reading material from the German/Austrian/Turkish side, mostly regarding Gallipoli.

As to the visor thing, my understanding is that in the Turkish Army there was an identity of wearing visored headgear and cowardice, and they even had a saying about it, which I have conveniently forgotten. I do not know that this equation of visored headgear and cowardice extended to the general Ottoman society, but it may have. So in Ottoman times soldiers would have objected strongly to being asked to wear a visored helmet. When Kemal Attatuerk (Uemlaut) modernized Turkey in the 1920s, he overthrew many old practices and beliefs with a vengance, and if you see present-day Turkish soldiers they wear billed caps with absolutely world-class visors, enormous visors. A lot of these reversals of custom have extended to the present day, and are a source of considerable conflict today between the moderate Islamic govenment and the staunchly secular establishment and military.

A dramatic example of this conflict; in 1998, I believe, in Istanbul, I watched Turkish police arrest Muslim clerics under the gaze of the then prime minister, who was moderately Islamic, as the clerics arrived for his speech, as they were wearing their clerical robes in public, which is unlawful in Turkey. This was near the Blue Mosque. The Turkish police were backed up by 34 M-60 main battle tanks, with Polis ( or Police in Turkish) written on both sides of their turrets.

Venturing OT, but on matters already extensively discussed on this thread, I study Iran a good deal, and women are expected to follow the dictates of the Qura'an, which is that women are supposed to shield their hair and breasts from the gaze of adult men from outside the family. There this prohibition has been extended so that women are supposed to also dress so that their bodily curves are also supposed to be obscured from the gaze of strangers. I do not believe that there is a prohibition of "western" dress, and street photos seem to show that about half of women or perhaps more are in fact wearing "western" dress, but usually wearing something to convey modesty. These restrictions lead to a lot of "style adventurism", like women wearing their scarf so far back that half their hair is exposed, etc., which can lead to a citation, while a moderate amount of hair peeping out is generally tolerated. (I regard all of this astonishing nonsense) These strictures, and the general situation of women, are much better than in, for example, Saudi Arabia. (For example, at least two years ago, the auto racing champion of Iran was a young woman, who was required, however, to wear a scarf under her crash helmet. (Her being champion infuriated some conservatives.) At the same time, a young Saudi woman with a foreign driver's license and training was sentenced (hard to believe!) to 18 years in prison for driving in Saudi Arabia and encouraging other women with foreign licenses to do so.

Returning to the core of the topic, very hard to imagine that a Muslim would pray wearing a steel helmet, so the praying hypothesis seems false. However, I cannot recall my source for the "hat visor = cowardice and surrender" idea, but almost all of my research on Turkey is from primary sources. As I recall the "cowardice and surrender" concept also was associated with foreign soldiers.

Bob Lembke

[centurion]

In the rein of Sultan Mahmud Khan II (1808-39) western dress styles began to replace the old Ottoman dress amongst the top layers of Turkish society (including the civil service). The Sultan did not wish to see the end of the Tarboosh or Fez and so issued a firman that this should be the form of headgear worn at all formal civic occasions regardless of the religion of the wearer. There seems to have been no reference to military matters or to brims being equated with cowardice or the crusades merely a desire to retain a traditional element of dress. As I've mentioned earlier there are plenty of examples of military helmets with visors dating from the high watermark of the Ottoman empire in the 17th Century. If one looks at photos of Turkish military units in WW1 the officers headgear is usually Fez shaped but examples of men wearing western style pith helmets can be found. There is also the occasional soldier with a peaked cap. There is also a hat (helmet?) that looks very like the old Dutch tin helmet to be seen on the odd soldier.

The firman was reversed in 1925 through the Hat Law 1925

[Tom W.]

Fascinating thread. Has there been any consensus on the answer?

Ha!

But I think it's significant that no Turkish headgear of the period had a peak or visor. There was the fez, the kalpak or lamb's wool hat, the kabalak or Enveriye that all branches of the military except for the navy wore, the cavalry version of the Enviriye that had a brim that was turned up so the hat looked like a fisherman's sou'wester... And in the navy officers had strange peakless caps, as seen in Osprey's The Ottoman Army 1914-18 on page 34.

The common element is no visor. One would almost begin to think that there was some kind of stricture against visors.

[centurion]

There are a few if you look

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3351/360950...e4bff295a_b.jpg

Have a gander at the guy on this Turkish AA gun in 1917

[tocemma]

I wonder if they might be German instructors? German looking caps....just a thought

[Tom W.]

I wonder if they might be German instructors? German looking caps....just a thought

That's exactly what they are. The Ottoman Turks simply did not wear headgear with peaks or visors.

Here's a photo of German artillerymen home from training the Turks. Note the caps...

[Tom W.]

Looks like a German cockade on the cap here...

[Tom W.]

Austrian artilleryman attached to the Turkish army in the Dardanelles. No visor on the sun helmet! We've all seen German-style pith helmets with large brims; why would this European fellow not shade his sensitive blue eyes from the harsh desert sun? Could it be that he was prevented from doing so by some kind of stricture, which he had to observe so as to not offend Ottoman sensibilities?

[centurion]

Or simply just a desire not to get his head blown off by his own side, presence of visor /lack of visor would serve as an instant recognition symbol in the dust, smoke and fog of war (much as the shape of headgear has in many wars down the centuries).

[Tom W.]

Actually, since the Turks never wore neck veils but the British did, clearly our Austrian was unconcerned about having his head blown off by his own side. Try again.

[trajan]

Actually, since the Turks never wore neck veils but the British did, clearly our Austrian was unconcerned about having his head blown off by his own side. Try again.

You misunderstand the kabalak which was designed to allow it to be unfolded to provide a 'neck veil' for shade to the neck when required. And so both sides would have soldiers with such a shade over their neck... This from: http://turkishtoysoldier.blogspot.com.tr/2012/03/ottoman-army-uniforms.html

The feeder/loader has his tidied up, not flowing like a kiffeyih as with our Austrian, but you get the point?

[trajan]

Here's a photo of German artillerymen home from training the Turks. Note the caps...

Note also the position of their Ottoman 'star' medals - the 'Eisener Halbmond' or 'Iron Crescent, denoting service with the Ottoman army. Not that I follow this stuff, but a new one for me, so thanks!

[khanda]

Cast any light ?

http://www.ottoman-uniforms.com/ww1-turkish-steel-helmet/

David