1 RWF at Ploegsteert December 1914

[widavies]

Hi all,

For all the RWF experts out there.............

I'm researching on behalf of a friend concerning the facts surrounding his relatives demise in WW1.

The event took place on 18/12/14, when the 1st btn were called into reserve for an attack on the line at Ploegsteert some 300 yards distant from the British lines. The attack was undertaken by the 2nd Warwicks and the 2nd Queens, but failed miserably. The 1st btn RWF were then called forward in support, but were never asked to attack. Despite this the btn suffered quite a few casualties, 1 officer badly wounded (died on 20/12/14), and of the other ranks, 1 killed, 17 wounded and 3 missing. I'm assuming that my friends relative was one of the three missing as he has no known grave. However the 1st Btn War diary does not mention what caused these casualties. I suspect that it was from shelling because the Btn was in reserve and should never have left the safety of the trenches, but is that true? Did the Germans mount a small counter attack?? Could anybody clear this up for me please? The 1st btn RWF war diary excerpt is shown below:-

Regards

Will Davies

[kenf48]

Have you read the account 2 Queens war diary? http://qrrarchive.websds.net/PDF/QW00219141206.pdf

It gives a graphic account of the fighting that day and it would seem the RWF joined up with the Queens who were under 'intense fire' but were delayed, they would seem to have had some difficulty advancing from their position "500 (?) yards" to the forward trench.

The account also records instances of casualties in the Queens (who were also initially in reserve) earlier in the afternoon, as a result of the preliminary British artillery bombardment i.e. 'friendly fire'.

So there are two possibilities - the Queens account mentions intense four machine guns firing to the front and one enfilading but does not mention German shelling which given the detail in earlier days it would have been mentioned if it occurred - there are some things we're unlikely ever to know for certain. The account is quite chilling in an understated way the noise, confusion and blood can only be imagined.

Ken

[widavies]

Unecessary quotation removed. Please use 'Add Reply' at the bottom, rather than 'Reply' in the previous post (unless, of course, you want to quote) - Admin

Thanks Ken,

It seems as if the RWF might have "gone forward" and thus accounted for the losses, especially the missing casualties. Incidently I didn't know it was in effect a night attack before reading the diary link you posted. Thanks for the differing perspective, and I wonder if anybody out there has the 2 Warwicks war diary of the attack which might add to the information available.

Regards

Will Davies

[kenf48]

Incidently I didn't know it was in effect a night attack before reading the diary link you posted.

It did seem a strange time to mount an attack, it would have been dark that time of the year (when I read the account I wondered if it was a typo pm for am but it seems not).

I wonder if it was because it was so early in the war, by 1918 it seems most planned attacks happened at dawn, or was it because it was planned and executed by Brigade and was in effect a "big raid" rather than part of a Divisional strategy?

It just occurred to me that visibility is supposed to be worse at dusk and did this account (in part - I know there are many other possible reasons) for the artillery falling short, it would be interesting to know when attacks at teatime were abandoned!

So many questions...

Ken

[Verrico2009]

Hi is your friend aware that some service papers have survived?

Name: John Jones

Estimated birth year: abt 1889

Age at Enlistment: 23

Birth Parish: Bwlchywyn

Birth County: Denbighshire

Document Year: 1912

Regimental Number: ??3

Regiment Name: Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers

Number of Images: 13

Here's the Ancestry link: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.d...&recoff=1+2

I confirm a few pages in the number is clearly visible. In fact, as sometimes happens, the link takes you into the middle of the set and the bulk is accessible using the back button. The page number at the start is 12272.

[widavies]

So many questions...

Hi Ken,

So many questions indeed!!

I wonder what the follow up operations must have been like trying to recover the dead and wounded at night....not a pleasant thought that.

If it was an enlarged trench raid, then by bombarding before the attack it surely would have alerted the defenders. Why didn't they just expand on the trench raid tactics by using stealth under the cover of darkness to get close to the trenches, then it might have produced better results. 300 to 500 yards advancing at dusk into an alerted enemy is a nasty thought. I wonder what the casualties were for the 2nd Warwicks who spearheaded the attack.

Regards

Will davies

[widavies]

Thanks, that's good news, I'll ask him if he wants to have these papers.

Regards

Will Davies

[dycer]

From the 8th Royal Scots War Diary.

18th December 1914-Attack on German trenches in subsection on our right by 2nd R.W. Regiment supported by 2nd Queens with 1st R.W. Fusiliers in reserve.Attack timed to start at 4.30 p.m.The orders to this Battalion were to open fire at the above hour on trenches opposite to prevent enemy withdrawing troops to support those attacked and also indicate there was no thinning from our line.Fire opened at 4.30 p.m. and vigorous response immediately from German Lines.At 5.15 p.m. the enemy shelled the farm at Touquet occupied by the Dressing Station and Battalion Headquarters.At 5.30 p.m. a shell landed on the thatched roof of one of the buildings and set fire to the farm which was burned to the ground.There was no loss of life.Enemy's guns ceased after building went on fire,but musketry duel continued for some time.A party of Bomb throwers and also of N.C.O's and men drawn from "A" Coy under Lieut A. Burt and temporarily attached to the R.E. accompanied the 2nd R.W.R. in the attack on German lines.Lieut Burt was killed and 2 Bomb Throwers wounded and missing.The casualties in the trenches were 2 killed and 6 wounded.

George

[widavies]

Hi is your friend aware that some service papers have survived?

Name: John Jones

Estimated birth year: abt 1889

Age at Enlistment: 23

Birth Parish: Bwlchywyn

Birth County: Denbighshire

Document Year: 1912

Regimental Number: ??3

Regiment Name: Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers

Number of Images: 13

Here's the Ancestry link: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.d...&recoff=1+2

I confirm a few pages in the number is clearly visible. In fact, as sometimes happens, the link takes you into the middle of the set and the bulk is accessible using the back button. The page number at the start is 12272.

Hi

Just heard off my friend who stated that the family knew that John Jones 4683, pte 1st bn RWF was just 17 when he enlisted (not sure what date), and not 23, so the age and DOB seems to be spurious for this case. Maybe it's another John Jones. Are you certain of the regimental number in this case?

Regards

Will Davies

[widavies]

Thanks Dycer,

A bigger picture of what happened that night is starting to emerge, especially as I never knew that the Royal Scots were in the area at the time.

Regards

Will Davies

[dycer]

Will,

To put the attack into perspective.

From the 8th Royal Scots History,written shortly after the end of the War.

"The first attack in which the Battalion participated was on 18th December,when they covered the attack of the 2nd Royal Warwick Regiment."

George

[widavies]

Hi is your friend aware that some service papers have survived?

Name: John Jones

Estimated birth year: abt 1889

Age at Enlistment: 23

Birth Parish: Bwlchywyn

Birth County: Denbighshire

Document Year: 1912

Regimental Number: ??3

Regiment Name: Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers

Number of Images: 13

Here's the Ancestry link: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.d...&recoff=1+2

I confirm a few pages in the number is clearly visible. In fact, as sometimes happens, the link takes you into the middle of the set and the bulk is accessible using the back button. The page number at the start is 12272.

That is him, all the info fits except for the DOB. it seems that he lied when he originally enlisted in 1912 his real age was 17, and he was just around 19 when he was killed. Thanks for the link.

Regards

Will Davies

[widavies]

Will,

To put the attack into perspective.

From the 8th Royal Scots History,written shortly after the end of the War.

"The first attack in which the Battalion participated was on 18th December,when they covered the attack of the 2nd Royal Warwick Regiment."

George

Thanks George,

All extra info is much appreciated.

Will Davies

[Verrico2009]

Glad you've sorted that out, Will. However, I think I've found the family in the 1901 census going on the NoK details provided, and John Jones was 12 then, making him 23 in 1912:-

Name: John Jones

Age in 1901: 12

Estimated birth year: abt 1889

Relation: Son

Father's Name: Edward

Mother's Name: Ann

Gender: Male

Where born: Minera, Denbighshire, Wales

Civil parish: Minera

Ecclesiastical parish: Minera St Mary

County/Island: Denbighshire

Country: Wales

Edward Jones 38

Ann Jones 39

Robert Jones 16

Olevia Jones 14

John Jones 12

Isaac Jones 10

Ann Jane Jones 8

Charles Jones 5

Edward O Jones 1

At that point, they're living at No.3 Victoria Terrace (No.7 in the later paperwork).

1911 census, at No.7:-

JONES, Edward Head Married M 50 1861 Coal Miner Timberman Denbighshire Llanarmon

JONES, Ann Wife Married 29 years F 51 1860 Denbighshire Llanarmon

JONES, John Son Single M 23 1888 Coal Miner Hewer Denbighshire Bwlch Gwyn

JONES, Isaac Son Single M 20 1891 Coal Miner Filler Denbighshire Coed Poeth

JONES, Charles Son Single M 15 1896 Coal Miner Wagoner Denbighshire Minera

JONES, Edward Owen Son Single M 11 1900 School Denbighshire Minera

As you say, all the details match, including regimental number and date of death. Could it have been Charles who signed up underage at the outbreak of war and somehow the history became muddled?

[widavies]

Glad you've sorted that out, Will. However, I think I've found the family in the 1901 census going on the NoK details provided, and John Jones was 12 then, making him 23 in 1912:-

Hi Verrico,

You could be right at that, my friend is off touring the WW1 battlefields from tomorrow, so won't be able to contact him for the next few days to confirm the confusion. Thanks though for all the information and the time you have taken to do the research.

His brother Charles Jones 26024, RWF, survived the war and was discharged in 1919 along with many others. Apparently he was wounded (gunshot) I think on the Somme in late on 1916. This was my friends grandfather.

Ok bed time for me.

Regards

Will Davies

[widavies]

Hi all,

For all the RWF experts out there.............

I'm researching on behalf of a friend concerning the facts surrounding his relatives demise in WW1.

The event took place on 18/12/14, when the 1st btn were called into reserve for an attack on the line at Ploegsteert some 300 yards distant from the British lines. The attack was undertaken by the 2nd Warwicks and the 2nd Queens, but failed miserably. The 1st btn RWF were then called forward in support, but were never asked to attack. Despite this the btn suffered quite a few casualties, 1 officer badly wounded (died on 20/12/14), and of the other ranks, 1 killed, 17 wounded and 3 missing. I'm assuming that my friends relative was one of the three missing as he has no known grave. However the 1st Btn War diary does not mention what caused these casualties. I suspect that it was from shelling because the Btn was in reserve and should never have left the safety of the trenches, but is that true? Did the Germans mount a small counter attack?? Could anybody clear this up for me please? The 1st btn RWF war diary excerpt is shown below:-

Regards

Will Davies

Hi All,

Having read all the information given to me by various people ( thanks). I have come to the conclusion that he was posted missing during the wounded clear up missions in no mans land on the evening of the 18th as it was recorded that the 1st RWF never took part in the attack. It seems most likely that the fresh troops not in the original attack that were occupying the trenches that evening were given that honour even though this was not stated in any of the war diaries studied. It was a hot zone still from Machine gun fire throughout the night and this could have resulted in his death although no mention of this was made in the RWF diaries, although alluded to in the 2nd Queens diary by their commanding officer.

Once again thanks for all your help it was much appreciated, especially the personal info on the family history by Verrico that helped correct some misplaced family folklore by the Jones family decendants. They are all grateful and also send their appreciation and thanks.

Regards

Will Davies

[dycer]

Will,

Not certain the front line Battalions were relieved on the 18/19th.

From the Royal Scots War Diary.

19th-no entry.

20th-Relieved by 1st R.S.F.

24th-Re-entered Trenches.

George

[widavies]

Will,

Not certain the front line Battalions were relieved on the 18/19th.

From the Royal Scots War Diary.

19th-no entry.

20th-Relieved by 1st R.S.F.

24th-Re-entered Trenches.

George

Hi George,

From the war diaries of the the 1st RWF, they were relieved to billets on the morning of the 19th Dec ( see attached), so my friends relative must have been killed during the night of the 18/19th.

You are quite right about the front line units staying in the front line a while longer in regards to the 2nd Queens, which stayed in the line until relieved by the S. Staffs and Warwicks on the 20th. I'm not sure about the 2nd Warwicks as to when when they were withdrawn.

Regards

Will Davies