Herbet Hole RFA

[malch]

Posted this under 'Insignia' but no one was playing, so I thought I'd try here.......

This is 14829 Herbert Hole 123 Bde RFA, photo taken in 1918 (three service chevrons). He arrived in France on 30/7/1915 and was wounded at the end of october 1917 and evacuated to Blighty.

I have his service record and I am trying to work out precisely when this photo was taken. He joined the Regulars in 1919.

When has was wounded has was a Bombadier and was promoted L/Cpl on 23/8/1918.

I am confused about the insignia above the stripe. A highly experienced and well-respsected member of this forum has already seen the photo, and has cast some doubt on my possible interpretation........................

Thanks

M

[kildaremark]

I would expect the laurel wreath to have an "L" or an "O" in it for a Layer or Observer qualification. Not sure which one this has. His service record should have the qualification in it.

Must be taken when he was Bombardier in 1918?

Mark

[Rockdoc]

It has to be 1918 or later because he's wearing his overseas-service chevrons and, because he's wearing three, I'd be tempted to say it could be 1919. The chevrons were awarded for each total of twelve-months' service - including an amount for leave - so he would have earned two by the time he was wounded in 1917. Depending on when he returned to overseas service, he'd need to qualify for his third, which puts his qualifying service as not less than ten months after his return. I don't know whether the clock restarted after a break or picked up again but the receipt of the third stripe would be later than his qualification for it.

I'm puzzled by the "promotion" to L/Cpl in 1918. In WW1, Bombardier was the Artillery equivalent of an infantry L/Cpl. The rank designations did alter in the RA after WW1, so that Bombardier became the equivalent of Corporal, but not during it as far as I'm aware. Certainly the War Diaries I've transcribed from Salonika still refer to Gunner, Bombardier and Corporal up to February 1919, when they end.

Keith

[malch]

I'm puzzled by the "promotion" to L/Cpl in 1918. In WW1, Bombardier was the Artillery equivalent of an infantry L/Cpl. The rank designations did alter in the RA after WW1, so that Bombardier became the equivalent of Corporal, but not during it as far as I'm aware. Certainly the War Diaries I've transcribed from Salonika still refer to Gunner, Bombardier and Corporal up to February 1919, when they end.

Keith

Thanks for that. It is the root of the problem. Why was he 'promoted' Cpl ?

Here is the entry from Herbert's service record. There is no mention in his record of a qualification, other than those which he took between 1919 and 1945.

[Rockdoc]

Ah! You made a mistake in your original post when you wrote that he was promoted to Lance-Corporal, a rank that did not exist at the time in the Artillery. He was actually promoted from Bombardier to Corporal, the next substantive rank, and he would have carried two chevrons. That means that the date of the photograph has to be before the date of the promotion. Given the three OS chevrons I'd say that it would not be very long before that date. Here are my Grandparents on their wedding day, when my Grandfather was a Corporal.

Keith

[malch]

OK Mea Culpa.

So, he was in UK until 17/4/18 having been wounded and evacuated on 18/11/17. Went back to France on 18/4/18. Returned to Uk (via Eastern Command) on 20/5/19. Posted to Depot, 29/5/19

The photo was taken at "The modern Electrical Studios, Woolwich". So, I'd say it was taken sometime after 29th May 1919.

How does that sound ?

M

[Rockdoc]

Sorry but it cannot be as late as 1919 as the photo shows him with only one stripe up so he's still a Bombardier. He's wearing a wound stripe on his other cuff so it's after his wounding (obviously!) When my Grandfather was wounded on 1st July 1916, he spent some time in a hospital in France before coming to England. By September he was at Shoeburyness for additional training and he left for Salonika the following March. Given the length of time Hole was in the UK,, he may well also have had some extra training and perhaps the photo shows him with his new laurels. Alternatively, he may had got leave between April and August but it's definitely before his promotion.

Keith

[malch]

Indeed. Still seems to be a timing problem here. Is it possible that the third chevron could have been awarded before he went back to France after his wounding ?

[Rockdoc]

I don't think so. As I understand it, after the red chevron for 1914 the blue chevrons were awarded for each period of twelve months served abroad, less an allowance for leave in the UK. My Grandfather got one red and three blue. He went to Flanders in early October 1914 and then gained 18 months between January 1915 and the end of June 1916. He then went abroad again in mid-March 1917 and returned in mid-January 1919 on demobilisation so call it December for counting purposes. That's another 21 complete months so 39 in all. I don't know how and when the chevrons were issued but his blue chevrons are on a single piece of cloth backing so must have been issued at the same time.

For Hole, August 1915 to October 1917 is 26 months (27 at a pinch) so he would have needed another 9 or 10 for his third chevron, which should have taken him to January/February 1919. There's definitely a timing problem unless he was reduced in rank at some point.

Keith

[malch]

For Hole, August 1915 to October 1917 is 26 months (27 at a pinch) so he would have needed another 9 or 10 for his third chevron, which should have taken him to January/February 1919. There's definitely a timing problem unless he was reduced in rank at some point.

Keith

Yes. That's what I thought. Here is the relevant section of his service record. I can't work it out at all.................

[Rockdoc]

Nor me. There's one possibility, of course. The photo isn't Hole!

Keith

[Stebie9173]

The qualification dates for the overseas chevrons would have been:

1st Chevron - 30-7-1915 (i.e. on landing)

2nd Chevron - 30-7-1916 (1st anniversary of landing)

3rd Chevron - 30-7-1917 (2nd anniversay of landing)

Qualification for 4th Chevron.

30-7-1917 to 18-11-1917 = 1+31+30+31+18 (days of month) = 111 days

plus

18-4-1918 to 27-12-1918 = 13+31+30+31+31+30+31+30+27= 254 days (111+254 days = 365 days)

i.e. He should have qualified for the 4th Chevron on 27 December 1918, give or take a day or two.

So in theory, the photograph was taken between 30-7-1917 and 27-12-1918. Since wound stripes were not issued until early 1918, that narrows the dates to 1918, and since he is not yet a Corporal then the date should be between January 1918 and August 1918.

I think confusion arises because (logically) one would expect them to have been issued at the end of each year of overseas service, when it is in fact the beginning of each year.

Steve.

[Rockdoc]

Steve, when were OS chevrons first issued? Wasn't that 1918 as well? As I wrote earlier, my Grandfather received one red - as an Old Contemptible - and three blue. The Blue chevrons are all on one, thin piece of cloth, suggesting that they were issued as one group.

Keith

[Stebie9173]

I saw them noted as issued on a service record - the date was very early January 1918, if I remember correctly.

Steve.

[Rockdoc]

Thanks, Steve. That's what I understood but it never hurts to get confirmation!

Keith

[malch]

So in theory, the photograph was taken between 30-7-1917 and 27-12-1918. Since wound stripes were not issued until early 1918, that narrows the dates to 1918, and since he is not yet a Corporal then the date should be between January 1918 and August 1918.

I think confusion arises because (logically) one would expect them to have been issued at the end of each year of overseas service, when it is in fact the beginning of each year.

Steve.

Terrific.

My original thought was that it was in the Spring of 1918 before he went back to France, which you have confirmed (within your range anyway). At a closer look, the chevrons all appear to be on one patch.

I think my Dad would know his Dad..............and it's signed and sent to his sister as a postcard.

M

[Andrew Upton]

Some confusion seems to have crept in here - Wounded Stripes appear July/August 1916, not in 1918:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...454&hl=july