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Stephen White

11th Royal Warwicks attack on Greenland Hill April 1917

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Stephen White

I am interested in an action that the 11th Royal Warwicks were involved in around the 27th April 1917, during which a loosely related family member Arthur Lambeth was killed. Arthur is commemorated in bay 3 the Arras Memorial.

I have a copy of a download of some diary details from 2005 posted by forum member Brindlerp, which gives a few brief details concerning an attack on Greenland Hill. My question is where was Greenland Hill and was it part of a larger action?

Thanks in advance.

Stephen

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Roger H

Stephen

Greenland Hill was north of the River Scarpe and North of Roeux - see square 8 on the attached. About 9km north east of Arras. Nowadays, it is close to the A26 and A1 interchange.

post-42671-1271873122.jpg

Roger

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Roger H

Stephen

Another view. Trenches as at March 1917.

post-42671-1271874822.jpg

Roger

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Teebo
My question is where was Greenland Hill and was it part of a larger action?

The date tells us it was part of the Battle of Arras (April 9th-May 16th 1917)

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Roger H

Stephen

The 27th April 1917 was between the 2nd Battle of the Scarpe (23rd-24th April) and the 3rd Battle of the Scarpe (3rd-4th May). Forum member Jim Smithson is the man for all things related!

Roger

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Stephen White

Teebo and Roger Thank you both.

I guessed the attack on Greenland Hill may have had something to do with the Battle of Arras, but Roger answered my poorly asked question in that Greenland Hill was between the 2nd and 3rd Battles of the Scarpe, which of course were part of a bigger picture the Battle of Arras.

Roger the maps were a nice surprise I wasn't expecting those at all, I'm over there in August so with the afore mentioned info and maps I'll be going to take a look.

Cheers

Stephen

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JimSmithson

Hi Stephen

First time I've ever been a man for all things!! Roger's map is later than March as the British front line is well past the actions in the diary - its the August one I think. You see, Greenland Hill was still a fair way off.

The 11th R.W.R. were part of 112th Brigade in 37th Division. Roger is correct in saying that the 27th lies somewhat between major actions. The diary for the 27th has the regiment in Chili Trench digging a communication trench from there to the front line at Clasp Trench. They had been in action on the 23rd in the attacks of the 2nd Battle of the Scarpe later on that date. They managed to get as far as 100yds west of the Gavrelle Roeux road but were stopped by fire from the Chemical Works. They dug in here and it was this trench they named Clasp. They were to attack again on the 28th so in the night 27th to 28th a jump off trench was dug another 50yds forward. German shelling went on all this time and as 'Soldiers Died' has Arthur as being killed in action, not died of wounds I can only imagine he was hit by shellfire at some point during the digging operations. The diary is not very clear on other rank casualties and when the occurred.

Hope this helps a bit - get in touch if you would like any bits out of the diaries - there are a couple of maps - not very clear but I could add their info to a better map if you would like.

Jim

Ah,you replied whilst I was writing. I will be at my house (not a million miles from where you are going) for much of August so get in touch if you want to meet up.

Jim

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Stephen White

Jim

That's some very good information you have given me, everything is starting to come together nicely now and it's more than I could of hoped for when I posted my question, it adds so much more to Arthurs story.

If you don't mind I'd love some bits out of the diary, perhaps a few days prior to and including the 27th, I will be over in France during the last weekend in August, will you be around then?

I'll be posting some information in Remembering Today next week on the 27th and how I came to be in possession of Arthurs medals.

Stephen

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GraemeClarke

Hi

Sorry to but in on the thread but I have a man from Walsall, Arthur Vernon ROBATHAN,

killed on 23 April 1917.

Has anyone any details for this day or, better still, the War Diary ?

Many thanks,

Graeme

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JimSmithson

Stephen and Graeme

I will extract some relevant days from the diaries (they are part of a big pdf so I will have to pull out the pages) and get them to you, should be small enough for a PM. Sorry Stephen, I have to return to get school ready for the start of term just before that last weekend so will not be there - shame, another time perhaps.

Graeme, your man certainly did die in that first attack on the evening of 23rd April - one of those attacks with a little gain at high cost that typifies much of 2nd Scarpe.

Jim

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JimSmithson

Sorry lads, even a single page from the pdf is over 100k (even zipped) so if you PM me with an email address I will get a copy of the April diary to you. I will also try and replicate the rather poor maps from the diary using better trench maps but that might take a while longer.

Jim

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Roger H

Stephen

I told you Jim would have the answers!!

Roger

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JimSmithson

Wish I had the answers to the timetable problems I really should be working on instead of being on here!! :wacko:

Jim

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GraemeClarke

Hi Jim,

Many thanks for the offer, PM sent.

Regards,

Graeme

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Stephen White
Sorry lads, even a single page from the pdf is over 100k (even zipped) so if you PM me with an email address I will get a copy of the April diary to you. I will also try and replicate the rather poor maps from the diary using better trench maps but that might take a while longer.

Jim

Jim

PM sent and thank you for your time.

Stephen

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eltoro1960

I was over last year filming a documentary about the 9th Scottish Division and their attack on Greenland Hill / Rouex / Chemical Works, there are pictures on a previous thread or you find a bit more on my website if you wish.

John

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Guest XxSLBxX

Good afternoon all,

I am so pleased to have stumbled across this thread as Private Arthur Vernon Robathan is my Great Uncle - he died on 23rd April 1917 after returning to battle, following a period of leave due to being invalided with trenchfoot the previous November.

Any further information that anyone is willing to share, particularly diary pages for the month of April that may or may not mention Arthur would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Sarah

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Stephen White

Hi All

I'm after a bit of advice/help/a few thoughts.

I'm off to France Sunday night/Monday morning and I will be spending some of my time looking at the area where Arthur Lambeth 11th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment see first post) was killed. Through information given in this thread by Jim Smithson and Roger H and a long time ago by forum member Brindlerp and maps from Linesman (which I'm taking with me) it's been established that Arthur amongst others was probably killed on the night of the 27th April 1917 while digging an extension to Chili Trench (extension was know as Clasp Trench?) in preparation for an attack on Greenland Hill planned for the 28th April 1917.

I've established that 7 men including Arthur from the 11th Battalion were killed on the 27th April (all commemorated on Bay 3, Arras Memorial). Given they were killed just hours before a major attack how likely is it they were moved to what is now known as Chili Trench Cemetery (which I believe is situated at what was the far end of Chili Trench) or would they have been buried where they were killed. Are there any records available that state where the original burials would have been?

Chili Trench contains 4 identified graves of 11th Battalion Men killed on 23rd, 24th and 25th April, the cemetery was later heavily shelled and a large number of graves lost (86 special memorials for those concerned) there are also 19 unidentified men. May be a very long shot, but you can probably see where I'm going with this, sort of hoping Arthur may originally been in Chili Trench Cemetery.

Regards

Stephen

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NickyD
On 21 April 2010 at 19:05, Roger H said:

Stephen

Greenland Hill was north of the River Scarpe and North of Roeux - see square 8 on the attached. About 9km north east of Arras. Nowadays, it is close to the A26 and A1 interchange.

post-42671-1271873122.jpg

Roger

image.jpg.8bb49d3c78da7017f6a51111a0f9390e.jpg

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Alisonmallen62

Could I trouble you all for some info on 8556 Albert George fairbrother Royal Warwickshire Regt please Kia 10/4/17 - no known grave but we as a family believe he was buried but subsequently lost.  Obviously noted on the Arras memorial. Any info gratefully received. Thank you

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