Researching a Scottish Soldier

[Ted_Dancin']

Hello all.

I'm new to this but, having read the positive responses to dorel341's recent post, I'm encouraged to seek input on a fairly similar topic:

My ancestry research (via ScotlandsPeople, the General Register of Scotland) has revealed a great uncle I didn't even know existed, born in 1897. His name - David Letham - wasn't particularly common, and the only death record of a David Letham born in 1897 is a soldier killed in 1917. It seems likely to me that this poor soul has to be my great uncle.

However, uncertainty exists because:

(i) I have an elderly uncle – born in the 1920s – who recalls playing with an Uncle Davie (although I suspect/hope that he may be confusing the several Davids in the family at that time).

(ii) The 1917 GROS death record is a scanned extract of a "Return of Warrant Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men of the (Machine Gun Corps) Killed in Action or who have Died whilst on Service Abroad in the War of 1914 to ...". Unlike an ordinary civilian death record, this extract does not record parents' names, address, etc.

So, can anyone tell me – is there more information somewhere that identifies parents or next-of-kin, and address.

I would dearly like for this soldier to be my relative. If I can confirm that link, there is a little patch of ground in a cemetery in Wancourt which I would be so honoured to visit.

Thanks for any guidance or information.

Relative's Details

------------------------

Name: David Letham (otherwise Lathem)

Birth Place: Glasgow, Scotland

Birth Date: 2 Mar 1897

Residence: Glasgow, Scotland

Father: John Lathem

Mother: Mary Welsh

Soldier's Details

---------------------

Name: David Letham

Rank: Lance Corporal

Regiment: Machine Gun Corps

Number: 99297

Type of Casualty: Killed in Action

Place of death: France

Death Date: 30 Sep 1917, (aged 20).

Cemetery: Wancourt British Cemetery

Grave/Memorial Reference: 1B49

[carolm]

Hi Ted,

The soldier who died 30/9/1917 was born in Barony and lived in Glasgow (Soldiers Died in the Great War database) but beyond that there isn't a more detailed address.

I checked the Glasgow Evening Post Roll of Honour index but couldn't see David's name under Letham, Latham, or Lathem. )FYI there was another Glasgow Letham - William, Cpl in Royal Engineers killed 13/14th April 1918 -newspaper 24/5/1918 p.4 with photo. Perhaps he is also a relative.)

The Scotsman 30/10/1917 has David on a casualty list of those killed. Nothing extra unfortunately - Letham, 99297, L.Cpl. D (Glasgow)

His service records doesn't appear to have survived.

Good luck with your search

Carolyn

[rksimpson]

Hi Ted

You might have to wait until the 1901 census comes out.

I know I am!

regards

Robert

[alf mcm]

Hello Ted,

Welcome to the Forum. The 1917 GROS death record you refer to is a list of soldiers who were BORN in Scotland and died abroad. As far as I am aware you would need to go to The National Archives {England} for a copy of his death certificate. This should show his parents names.

According to the 1901 Census {Ancestry version} there was only 1 David Letham born about the right time 'about 1898'. There are no David Lathems. The problem is that his parents are shown as William and Mary, you have John and Mary. There could be a mistake in the Ancestry transcriptions. It is also possible that David Lathem died before 1901 and is therefore not in the census, perhaps another child was born later and given the same name!

Regards,

Alf McM

[eltoro1960]

This might shed more light, the David Letham from the Machine Gun Corps who was killed in 1917 left a will, details of which are below.

Repository National Archives of Scotland

Reference SC70/8/707/24

Title Will of 99297 Lance Corporal David Letham, Machine Gun Corps (Infantry), Cause of death: Killed in action, France or Belgium, Theatre: France and Flanders, 30 Sep 1917

Dates 28 Aug 1917

Access status Open

Access conditions Due to its fragile condition this will cannot be produced in the search room. Please contact a member of Search Room staff for details of how to access this document.

Description Informal will from Pay Book (Army Book 64). War Office refs: E/450536/1, 330/568789/17/1

Hopefully it would give details of a next of kin, it an Army paybook will so it wl be brief, if you contact the NAS by email they will explain how you can obtain a copy, it costs about £10.

John

As an aside the Captain of my local football team,Newtongrange Star during WW1 was a Crawfod Letham.

[roughdiamond]

Ted

With reference to John's post above, the fact the will form cannot be viewed is nothing unusual, I've came up against this before, with that in mind I called the NAS this morning and they will digitise the image of the Will form as they did with one of my relatives, you can then view it if you go to the Archives in Charlotte Square, Edinburgh, free of charge, or you can order a copy by post, unfortunately there is a charge of £10 for this. The form will normally show the next of kin and an address.

It can take up to a week to digitise the image, I don't know if you live near Edinburgh, if not maybe a pal on here could pay a visit for you?

If you need anymore info, just post it on here, if no one on the thread offers to help, put a seperate thread on in a weeks time requesting if someone could view the image for you, first though, call the Archives on 01315351334 to ensure the image has been digitised and quote the reference from John's post above.

There are 2 other David Letham's on the National Archives with Medal Cards, one in the Argyll's who was born in Stirling in 1889 and another in the Royal Engineers, but I don't see a Service Record for him.

All the best

Sam

[Ted_Dancin']

Hi again, everyone. You are all so helpful, and I am extremely grateful for your interest and assistance.

carolm – my great uncle was born in Camlachie, Glasgow, which does indeed fall within the old Barony parish boundaries (although it seems that just about all of the north and east of old Glasgow was also in that Parish). And thanks for the newspaper steers, I may well make a trip to the Mitchell Library. The chap called William could be a relative waiting to be re-discovered, and I'll be keeping him in mind as I progress.

rkirb5 – If you mean the 1911 census, yes I yearn for its publication. Got umpteen searches planned for it.

alf mcm – the David Letham/Lathem I'm researching definitely appears on the 1901 census in Scotland as the 4 year old son of John and Mary Lathem, living in Camlachie, Glasgow. Ref 1901 644/02 006/02 028. I'm looking forward to viewing developments in that 1911 census. I have to confess that I haven't looked at Ancestry.co. uk , as I understood they only had England and Wales records. So I may have to rethink that.

John Duncan and roughdiamond – I hadn't thought about a soldier's will, many thanks. I'll definitely follow this up. I'm just about within striking distance of Charlotte Square, about 40 miles (at the north end of the A73 from roughdiamond).

Thank you, everyone. I'll let you know if L/Cpl D Letham 99297 was indeed my Great Uncle.

[Lost in Tilloy]

The City of Glasgow Roll of Honour simply has:

Letham, David, Private, Machine Gun Corps, 29 Stirling Street.

Regards

LIT

[Ted_Dancin']

roughdiamond -

I've phoned the NAS office, they're quoting 2-4 weeks turnaround, but that's okay.

T.

[Heid the Ba]

Can't add anything but I love the nom de net.

[Ted_Dancin']

Can't add anything but I love the nom de net.

Cheers Heidy. Yours isn't bad either. I can remember my dad calling me that.

[alf mcm]

Ted,

David Lathem didn't appear on the Ancestry version of the 1901 census. David, and the rest of his family are there, but with the surname 'Lathan'!

Regards.

Alf McM

[Guest]

Hi, it might be worth contacting The MGC Old Comrades Association

Cheers Mike

[KevinBattle]

Cheers Heidy. Yours isn't bad either. I can remember my dad calling me that

Ah, but HIS apostrophe is short for "Stewart"...... sorry, Heid, couldn't resist the pun!!

[Heid the Ba]

I've had worse, one poster here took more than a year to realise my name wasn't "Heidi"!

[roughdiamond]

the David Letham/Lathem I'm researching definitely appears on the 1901 census in Scotland as the 4 year old son of John and Mary Lathem, living in Camlachie, Glasgow. Ref 1901 644/02 006/02 028.

Ted

I'm afraid I have bad news for you, on the 1901 Census for the Blackfriars area of Glasgow at #6 Stirling Street there is a Letham Family with a David age 3, the rest of the family is:

Father William 42 Butcher

Mother Mary 42

Son John G 22 Butcher

Son William 19 Butcher

Daughter Lizzie 12

Daughter Mary 11

Son Andrew 9

Son James 7

Daughter Maggie 1

It seems more likely this is the David going by the Address in "LIT's" post, there's is the correct spelling of Letham whereas you're looking for Latham, I'm taking it you're 100% sure you have the correct Latham family in the 1901 Census as you'll have traced it back through your parents?

Still might be worth a look at the Will form mate to be 100% sure.

Some good news though to counteract this, there is a David Latham on Scotlands People Died in Glasgow aged 70 in 1968, this could be your man, you'd have to go to either the Registry office search room in Glasgow or the Scotlands People Centre in Edinburgh to view the Certificate as you can't do it online, but I'd say he's a more likely candidate.

Let me know how you get on.

Sam

[Ted_Dancin']

Ted

I'm afraid I have bad news for you, on the 1901 Census for the Blackfriars area of Glasgow at #6 Stirling Street there is a Letham Family with a David age 3, the rest of the family is:

Father William 42 Butcher

Mother Mary 42

Son John G 22 Butcher

Son William 19 Butcher

Daughter Lizzie 12

Daughter Mary 11

Son Andrew 9

Son James 7

Daughter Maggie 1

It seems more likely this is the David going by the Address in "LIT's" post, there's is the correct spelling of Letham whereas you're looking for Latham, I'm taking it you're 100% sure you have the correct Latham family in the 1901 Census as you'll have traced it back through your parents?

Still might be worth a look at the Will form mate to be 100% sure.

Some good news though to counteract this, there is a David Latham on Scotlands People Died in Glasgow aged 70 in 1968, this could be your man, you'd have to go to either the Registry office search room in Glasgow or the Scotlands People Centre in Edinburgh to view the Certificate as you can't do it online, but I'd say he's a more likely candidate.

Let me know how you get on.

Sam

Thanks r-d and l-i-t.

It does seem possible that I am pursuing the wrong David Lathem/Letham/Latham, so clarifying that matter is my first priority.

I need to see that soldier's will at Charlotte Square, and while I'm near Princes Street, I could do worse than checking out the David Latham who died in 1968. (strange that I would never have heard speak of him if he lived to the late 60s).

roughdiamond - when you mention the Registry Office search room in Glasgow, where is that? - Martha Street?

I've definitely got the right Lathem [spelling] family in the 1901 census. Address is at Cornfield Street, same as the place of birth of the David Lathem I'm researching. Maw and paw = Mary and John. Another son James (b.23/12/1893) was my grandfather and, actually, I'm given to believe that he also fought in WW1, although I haven't investigated him as yet.

(For info, the family surname these days seems to have settled on Letham, but the historical variations haven't helped).

The Blackfriars-based (Stirling St) Lethams in 1901 are not known to my family tree - so far. But I'll be hanging on to that possibility as I do more digging.

T.

[Ted_Dancin']

Hi, it might be worth contacting The MGC Old Comrades Association

Cheers Mike

Thanks, skipman.

That's something I'll pursue if I can confirm L/Cpl D Letham as my ancestor.

T.

[Guest KevinEndon]

here are all the men with that surname on the Glasgow Roll of honour

LETHAM Andrew Sergeant King's Own Scottish Borderers 26 George Street

LETHAM Charles J Corporal Cameron Highlanders 28 Bankhall Street Govanhill

LETHAM David Private Machine Gun Corps 29 Stirling Street

LETHAM James Private Gordon Highlanders 66 Avenue Road Springburn

LETHAM John B Lance Corporal Highland Light Infantry 182 Auchenairn Road

Kevin

[roughdiamond]

roughdiamond - when you mention the Registry Office search room in Glasgow, where is that? - Martha Street?

Ted

The Registry office at Park Circus in Glasgow has computers that have the same access to the Scotlands People records as the one on Princess St in Edinburgh, unfortunately they have very few computers so the waiting list is longer, the link's below.

http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/Residents/Bir...enealogyCentre/

According to a Woman who works in Bellshill Registry office that my Wife travels with, Computers with access to the Edinburgh records will be installed in Registry offices all over the Country soon, so that's something to look forward to.

[Ted_Dancin']

here are all the men with that surname on the Glasgow Roll of honour

LETHAM Andrew Sergeant King's Own Scottish Borderers 26 George Street

LETHAM Charles J Corporal Cameron Highlanders 28 Bankhall Street Govanhill

LETHAM David Private Machine Gun Corps 29 Stirling Street

LETHAM James Private Gordon Highlanders 66 Avenue Road Springburn

LETHAM John B Lance Corporal Highland Light Infantry 182 Auchenairn Road

Kevin

Thanks Kevin. I'm hanging on to these names too, for future reference.

T.

[Ted_Dancin']

Ted

The Registry office at Park Circus in Glasgow has computers that have the same access to the Scotlands People records as the one on Princess St in Edinburgh, unfortunately they have very few computers so the waiting list is longer, the link's below.

http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/Residents/Bir...enealogyCentre/

According to a Woman who works in Bellshill Registry office that my Wife travels with, Computers with access to the Edinburgh records will be installed in Registry offices all over the Country soon, so that's something to look forward to.

Thanks r-d.

Drat, I used to work in Park Circus Place. But I'll probably use the Princes Street centre when I eventually visit Charlotte Square.

T.

[Ted_Dancin']

Ted

I'm afraid I have bad news for you, on the 1901 Census for the Blackfriars area of Glasgow at #6 Stirling Street there is a Letham Family with a David age 3, the rest of the family is:

Father William 42 Butcher

Mother Mary 42

Son John G 22 Butcher

Son William 19 Butcher

Daughter Lizzie 12

Daughter Mary 11

Son Andrew 9

Son James 7

Daughter Maggie 1

It seems more likely this is the David going by the Address in "LIT's" post, there's is the correct spelling of Letham whereas you're looking for Latham, I'm taking it you're 100% sure you have the correct Latham family in the 1901 Census as you'll have traced it back through your parents?

Still might be worth a look at the Will form mate to be 100% sure.

Some good news though to counteract this, there is a David Latham on Scotlands People Died in Glasgow aged 70 in 1968, this could be your man, you'd have to go to either the Registry office search room in Glasgow or the Scotlands People Centre in Edinburgh to view the Certificate as you can't do it online, but I'd say he's a more likely candidate.

Let me know how you get on.

Sam

roughdiamond, and all - The David Latham who died in 1968 is the man I'm after. I was able to get sight of his death record at Martha Street Glasgow (the people at Park Circus suggested going there if my enquiry was a one-off).

It's not easy tracing an ancestor when his surname spelling keeps changing. His birth was recorded as Letham, the 1901 Census showed him as Lathem, and he died a Latham.

Sadly, the outcome is that the David Letham who died in 1917 in France is not my great uncle. But I will cling to the hope that he is related in another branch of my tree, as yet undiscovered.

I'd like to express my sincere thanks to everyone who has helped with my enquiry. I am truly in awe of your subject knowledge, and your readiness to put it to good use in helping others. (You'd never fit in at a Call Centre).

Cheers,

Ted_Dancin'

[roughdiamond]

Well that's a first Ted, someone regreting their Great Uncle didn't die in the War

You should be able to track down David's descendents easily if you go to Park Circus of Princess St, I had a quick look on GenesReunited and there is someone called Thomas who has a David Lathem born Glasgow 1897 and someone called Susan who has a David Letham born 1898 in Glasgow on their tree's, if you want I can send them a message asking if theirs is your Great Uncle if you're not on the site?

I had a look at Latham but of the 3 that came up, 2 were born in England and one in Wales.

Sam

[Ted_Dancin']

You should be able to track down David's descendents easily if you go to Park Circus of Princess St, I had a quick look on GenesReunited and there is someone called Thomas who has a David Lathem born Glasgow 1897 and someone called Susan who has a David Letham born 1898 in Glasgow on their tree's, if you want I can send them a message asking if theirs is your Great Uncle if you're not on the site?

Sam

Thanks r-d. I'd like to get myself organised for a visit to Park Circus later in the year. (The girl there the other day told me that they have 12 computers available - one is on a first-come, first served basis. The other 11 are each pre-bookable at £14 for the day, and she's currently taking bookings well into June. Must be popular).

Thanks for the Genesreunited offer, but I'll follow it up myself. I think I know the Thomas.

Ted.