Shot At Dawn, but no known grave

[depaor01]

Hi all.

Let me firstly say that I am completely neutral about this subject and have no agenda here. I see from searches in the forum that the very mention of men S.A.D. can arouse heated discussion. I'm not going into the rights and wrongs of crime vs punishment.

My question is a simple one.

I've come across four men who were shot at dawn, but are commemmorated on various memorials and not buried in marked graves. Men shot by firing squad seem to usually have been buried in marked graves in exactly the same way as those killed by enemy fire.

However in these cases (and probably many others):

Stephen Byrne RDF 40422 Died 28 Oct 1917

Thomas Cummings Ir. Guards 2222 Died 28 Jan 1915

Albert Smythe Ir. Guards 3379 Died 28 Jan 1915

Tommy Davis Royal Munsters 1/9804 Died 2 Jul 1915

were executed for various reasons, but all have no known grave.

Given that when they met their fate they were in the hands of their own side and not, like other unknowns, lying in no-man's land for weeks and their remains obliterated, how were their bodies 'lost'? The execution locations seem to have been a long way from any action.

[ulsterlad2]

Perhaps they were buried in marked graves but those graves were destroyed by later fighting.

[phil@basildon]

Many of those with no known grave had a grave that was later destroyed during later actions due mostly to shellfire and the exact location lost. If you can identify where the exections took place you may find it to be an area that was fought over several times since the execution.

[ralphjd]

ARRAS MEMORIAL has 2; BASRA MEM 4; Le TOURET 8; LOOS 2; La FERTE 2; THIEPVAL 3 and VIS-EN-ARTOIS 1 commemorated. Ralph.

[David B]

Thomas Cummings is remembered on the LE TOURET Memorial, presumably no grave just remembered on the wall.

David

[sotonmate]

d01,

How many thousands of KIA suffered the fate of burial places destroyed in later fighting also ?

A proper burial given to all at the time of death but who was to know what later havoc would be wreaked in re-fighting over the same territory.

We read often of trench occupancy where pieces of body were protruding from walls and ramparts,and shell holes exposing similar.

A regrettable (I amended the word first used) fact of the conflict.

Sotonmate

[Kate Wills]

The execution locations seem to have been a long way from any action.

At the time yes, but front lines did shift, especially during the resumption of the war of movement in 1918.

Have you tried looking for the locations of men who died in the vicinity at the same time as your lads?

[depaor01]

How many thousands of KIA suffered the fate of burial places destroyed in later fighting also ?

Untold thousands, and in a separate post on this forum I had a fantastic amount of info given to me about one such individual named on a pair of medals in my possession. May he Rest in Peace.

But my point was that the executed men were among their own when they died and therefore their final resting places (I thought) should be verifiable, both at the time and now. The posts in reply give some feasible explanations as to why they were lost subsequently.

I'll revisit the book I've just read ("Forgotten Soldiers" by Stephen Walker) and check the places of execution.

The subject is in my mind since finishing the book and it's one to which I'd never given much thought before.

I guess the answer may never be known at this stage.

[depaor01]

Stephen Byrne (alias Michael Monaghan)

De Cusine Ravine cemetery is the nearest to Basseux where he was shot, but the last burial there was September 1917 - a month before his date of death. If this is true then he can’t be buried there.

Tommy Davis – shot on Gully Beach. Twelve Tree Copse Cemetery seems to be the nearest to his place of execution and the dates of interments here would tie in with his date of death.

No more detail on the others.