Odd Cap - What is it?

[john in minnesota]

I just picked this cap up at my local swap. I found it so odd I had to take a chance on it. Wool is almost a field grey color; rifle buttons with queens crown; prince of wales badge has been there a long time and it has the remains of an old London tailors paper label. What is it?

[john in minnesota]

and another pic:

[scottmarchand]

a rifle regiment maybe the Queens RR, 1950's - 60's therabouts

[Radlad]

I don't know anything about uniform items, but have a cap almost identical to that (with plain buttons) that I believe was part of my grandfathers Home guard uniform from WW2. Mine unbuttons and folds down to cover the ears and re buttons under the chin. I think it was Standard issue to all the UK forces in those days

[IPT]

Made by Hobson & Sons, 1, 3 & 5 Lexington Street, Haymarket.

Still going http://www.hobsonuniforms.co.uk/

[Steven Broomfield]

Made by Hobson

Not much choice, then.

[wainfleet]

It's Victorian and almost certainly for a rifle volunteer unit. Hobsons made a lot of kit for the London volunteers and territorials. Hard to guess at the value as whilst extremely rare, this kind of thing doesn't have the mass collecting appeal of the Great War, but a quality piece to enjoy owning, at least for a while.

[Vimyridge]

Those are Queen Victoria crowns so this dates the cap turn of the century.

Not all buttons would be replaced the same year that the sovereign would have died but it\'s safe to guess

no later than 1903 (she died in 1901)

Many collectors confuse and misuse the term \"Queens crown\"

It\'s name is St Edwards crown.

Here is a run down

\"St Edwards\" crown was used to crown Queen Victoria in 1837 (It is the official coronation crown)

Victoria found the crown rather heavy so she had a smaller state crown made for her when she became empress of India.

This little \"diamond encrusted\" crown looks completely different then St Edwards crown yet all official printed or illustrated representations

of the crown during her reign are shown as a large stylized \"St Edwards\" crown with high pointy edges.

To confuse it even more, when she died her son King Edwards decided to adopt her \"smaller crown\" also know as the \"Tudor Crown\" as his own.

This smaller crown represented the following four sovereigns until 1952

King Edward VII (1901-1910)

King George (1910-1936)

King Edward VIII (1936)

King George VI (1936-1952)

Queen Elizabeth decided to revert to the old St Edwards crown when she was crowned in 1952

Below is St Edwards crown as it looked during the Victorian period.

The only way to tell it apart from Queen Elizabeth\'s crown is the top edges are pointed and exaggerated.

Militaria items with this crown date them from 1837-1901

Below is what is called the Tudor crown

dating militaria items with this crown put it from 1901-1952

Below is St Edwards Crown (Queen Elizabeth II version, which has a slightly more bulbous top edge to the crown than the Victorian version)

Dating militaria with this crown dates it from 1952 to the present day.

Hope this helps any newbies

Roger

[themonsstar]

Roger

Thank you for the info on the crowns, it does get confusing some times,

Cheers

Roy

[Vimyridge]

Your welcome Roy

Here is a photo of Victoria wearing her smaller crown,

this can cause confusion as it looks nothing like the official crown we see that represents her reign

If anything, it looks more like the Tudor crown from 1901-1952.

So new collectors should take note of this.

[MBrockway]

How about the obvious - Civil Service Rifles?

Boer War era.

The CSR's wore a field grey Dress Uniform too. As did several of the other London rifles units - the so-called Grey Brigade.

In fact rifles legend puts the use of Field Grey by the German Army down to a review of the QWR's by Kaiser Wilhem on 10 July 1891. He was very impressed by the drill of the volunteers and so liked the uniform colour he chose it for his own armies.

Whether that part's true or not I don't know, but he certainly was impressed enough by the QWR's that he commissioned a special portrait of himself for the QWR's Officers' Mess at Buckingham Gate. It now hangs in Davies Street. During WW2 it was turned to face the wall!

Cheers,

Mark

[john in minnesota]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone !

[7t2ndswinger]

How about the obvious - Civil Service Rifles?

Boer War era.

The CSR's wore a field grey Dress Uniform too. As did several of the other London rifles units - the so-called Grey Brigade.

In fact rifles legend puts the use of Field Grey by the German Army down to a review of the QWR's by Kaiser Wilhem on 10 July 1891. He was very impressed by the drill of the volunteers and so liked the uniform colour he chose it for his own armies.

Whether that part's true or not I don't know, but he certainly was impressed enough by the QWR's that he commissioned a special portrait of himself for the QWR's Officers' Mess at Buckingham Gate. It now hangs in Davies Street. During WW2 it was turned to face the wall!

Cheers,

Mark

The upright scrolls the the badge are very typical of the Civil Service Rifles collars. What metal is it and any change of a close up please.

[john in minnesota]

Here's a close-up of the badge - you can see the shadow when it is removed. Metal appears to be blackened bronze.

[7t2ndswinger]

Here's a close-up of the badge - you can see the shadow when it is removed. Metal appears to be blackened bronze.

Thanks John,

I'm 99.9% certain (blackened brass, tight scroll, rifle buttons, etc) it's the 25th Middlesex (Civil Service) Rifle Volunteers, later to become the 15th Btn London Regiment after 1908. It's answered a question I had as to what their badge was like during the Victorian period all be it a field service cap rather than forgae cap version.

[MBrockway]

Thanks John,

I'm 99.9% certain (blackened brass, tight scroll, rifle buttons, etc) it's the 25th Middlesex (Civil Service) Rifle Volunteers, later to become the 15th Btn London Regiment after 1908. It's answered a question I had as to what their badge was like during the Victorian period all be it a field service cap rather than forgae cap version.

Me too - hence my suggestion.

On page 15 of Jill Knight's The Civil Service Rifles in the Great War - 'All Bloody Gentlemen' there's a photo of the CSRs in 1900 about to leave for South Africa with the City Imperial Volunteers.

They are wearing their grey uniforms with side caps, but the caps are much darker than the tunics and the cap badges do not appear to be blackened - could perhaps be a cap & badge specifically for the CIV. At least it does show that the CSRs wore the side cap at that period.

As Jill is a Pal here on the Forum I felt it inappropriate to scan & post her pics.

Cheers,

Mark