GraemeClarke Posted 13 April , 2010 Share Posted 13 April , 2010 Hi According to the Walsall Pioneer, an aircraft crashed in Walsall on Saturday 7 April 1917 killing a woman, Frances Ann North (65) and her grand-daughter Edna May Vass (only 10 months old) of 5, Brewer Street, Walsall. Evidently the aircraft, from Fernhill Heath, Market Drayton and piloted by Second Lieutenant Mann RFC, got difficulties over Walsall and crashed killing both. The pilot, who survived but was too ill to attend the inquest, is not named further. Can anyone add anything to the above or identify the pilot at all or how do I find out ? Regards, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Roberts Posted 13 April , 2010 Share Posted 13 April , 2010 Try the archives section of "Flight International" - they have put all their back copies on-line in pdf format. They don't list all losses on the Western Front but they seem to be quite good for crashes in the UK. Suggest search under Wallsall and/or pilots name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeClarke Posted 15 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2010 Adrian, You are a genius. Found an entry but it really doesn't add much ie Fatal Accidents. WHILE flying near Walsall on the morning of April 7 th an officer of the R.F.C. had to descend from a considerable height, and after clearing some houses alighted in the garden in front of one of them. The aeroplane seems to have struck a Mrs. North, who was walking in the garden with her granddaughter, Edna Vass, a baby, in her arms, and both were killed. The pilot was taken to a hospital with a cut on the face and suffering from shock, but it is understood that his injuries are not serious. The machine was damaged. Many thanks for replying, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josquin Posted 15 April , 2010 Share Posted 15 April , 2010 Graeme There are 69 RAF officers with the surname Mann in the AIR 76 collection at the National Archives. Tracking down the right man without a forename, or even an initial, will be a formidable task. John Anderson Mann was G.R.M. Reid's observer in 25 Squadron; 68 possibilities remain. Regards Trelawney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesleycrabb Posted 15 April , 2010 Share Posted 15 April , 2010 Hello Graeme, Just to help, possibly, your "Fernhill" should read Ternhill. I live about 3 miles away from it, and it is still operational with the Armed Forces. Best Regards Wes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeClarke Posted 16 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 16 April , 2010 Trelawney/Wes. Many thanks for your input. Im visiting the local history centre tomorrow to see if other local papers have any more. Once again, thanks for your time and trouble. Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fetubi Posted 16 April , 2010 Share Posted 16 April , 2010 Graeme, I think I've found our man, but still uncertain of initials. A Lt Mann of 43 Reserve Squadron RFC crashed Avro 504 A533 on 7 April 1917 - he got lost and then his engine failed and was forced to land and crashed. A couple more pieces of the jig-saw, anyway. I've got a couple more places to go and look - keep fingers crossed. This bit came from a Casualty Card at RAF Museum Hendon, but unless the airman was killed, or particularly drew my attention, I didn't write down the initials and name when I went through them - just the running alphabetic listing. Regards, Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeClarke Posted 16 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 16 April , 2010 Trevor, What an absolute star !! I'm visiting the local history centre tomorow on the off chance other papers will have a bit more, but that is absolutely fantastic, more than I hoped for. Many thanks, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigantian Posted 17 April , 2010 Share Posted 17 April , 2010 Graeme If your current lines of enquiry draw a blank, you could try the death certificate for Frances Ann North or Edna May Vass. Where an inquest is held, the findings are usually entered in the cause of death section in the form of a short narrative. Might be a long shot, but this could contain the pilot’s first names or initials. The drawback is the £9.25 cost of a certificate. Death certificates can be ordered on-line from here. The references are: Year/Quarter: 1917, April, May, June Name: NORTH, Frances A District: Walsall Volume: 6b Page: 881 Name: VASS, Edna M District: Walsall Volume: 6b Page: 881 Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeClarke Posted 24 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2010 Hi According to the Walsall Observer the pilot was Second Lieutenant T.S.L. Mann. Cannot find anything on Ancestry re his MIC. Does the name meany anything to anyone. Regards, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apwright Posted 24 April , 2010 Share Posted 24 April , 2010 2/Lt Thomas Sydney Lanyon Mann has a Royal Aero Club Aviator's certificate and photo dated 5 Feb 1917 in Album 13 on Ancestry. Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 24 April , 2010 Share Posted 24 April , 2010 RAF service record online: Name Mann, Thomas Sydney Lanyon Date of birth: 26 September 1888 (the RAeC cert gives 1886) http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=5 Only a small fraction of RFC/ RAF officers had War Office MICs, the RAF have yet to release theirs to the public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeClarke Posted 24 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2010 Adrain and Per Ard etc. Many thanks for your input, I now have his photo and record. It is amazing, really. A week or so ago all I knew was that there had been an aircraft accident in Walsall and now I have most of the picture (only need to trace the graves). Many thanks to all who contributed to this thread, all much appreciated. Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josquin Posted 24 April , 2010 Share Posted 24 April , 2010 RAF service record online: Name Mann, Thomas Sydney Lanyon Date of birth: 26 September 1888 (the RAeC cert gives 1886) http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=5 Only a small fraction of RFC/ RAF officers had War Office MICs, the RAF have yet to release theirs to the public. Gentlemen: T.S.L. Mann's birth was registered in 4th Quarter 1888, at Crediton, Devon, according to the BMD. It appears that the birthdate given in the RAF service record is the correct date rather than the RAC's. Trelawney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeClarke Posted 24 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2010 Trelawney Hi, and many thanks, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Dragon Posted 7 October , 2011 Share Posted 7 October , 2011 Graeme, If you are still interested in this incident let me know. I am the archivist at the Walsall Local History Centre and have the coroner's inquest papers regarding the incident. Indeed, it forms, along with another case, the backbone of a talk i do on the history of the Walsall Coroner. The Centre where i work is around the corner from Brewer St, where the crash happened. Mann actually shouted for people to get out of the way as his plane collapsed! If others are interested i will post it on here as well - i am sure i have written-up some account of it, so it is a cut and paste really. It is also interesting for how the RFC, the local ommunity and the Mayor of Walsall dealt with the incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Dragon Posted 8 October , 2011 Share Posted 8 October , 2011 Trelawney Hi, and many thanks, Graeme Hi Graeme - i found this, which i had written for an 'internal article':- I guess sitting in her cottage, 5 Brewer St, Ryecroft, Walsall, Louisa Vass thought that the only way the war would touch her was in receiving the dreaded telegram to say that Arthur, her husband, had been killed whilst serving in France with the Royal Garrison Artillery, leaving their 10 month old daughter, Edna, without a dad. On the 7th April, 1917, this security was shattered. Louisa was at home with Edna and her 62 year-old mother, Frances North. At 11am, she heard the sound of an aeroplane and went into the garden to look at it, as she had done before. She watched it for a few minutes and went back into the cottage to get little Edna, while her mother stayed outside. The plane, an Avro (A 533), was on a military flight from Tern Hill (Market Drayton) to Castle Bromwich and was being flown by Ft Lt Mann; a flight he had done before. Louisa returned to the garden, child in arms, in time to hear a shout of 'run' from the pilot, as the plane fell to the floor, killing little Edna and Frances. Louisa was injured and shocked. Mann broke both legs. A witness, from the Royal Exchange pub said how he had watched the plane circling and was of the opinion the ‘the pilot was in some difficulty’. When interviewed in his hospital bed, Mann said that “all went well after take-off until around 11am, when I ran into a thick mist. I was then about 4000ft high, so I descended (on account of the mist) to about 400 to 500ft when suddenly my engine petered out… I circled several times and tried to make for open country but I failed… the bi-plane crashed to earth. I should think then I was about 100ft high and I waved at them to get out of the way” Mann was absolved of blame and seemingly rightly in my opinion having read the inquest. It was a tragic and bizarre accident. However, what happens next is both heart-warming and deeply annoying. The community at Ryecroft rallied around Louisa and the church, under Rev Dawson, organised a fund which raised a sum of £8 - this was being paid to her in instalments. The Council also helped. The Mayor, S M Slater, who had lost his wife in the Zeppelin raid, personally ordered the cost of the funerals at Rushall Church, some £11:10s, was to be paid through the War-Aid Fund. Now, the Royal Flying Corps did absolutely nothing to assist and there was not even an apology. Despite this seemingly being a accident, today, with the compensationy no win - no fee society we have, they would have had the pants sued off them.Worse, Louisa received a war-separation allowance of 12s 6d per week, with an extra 7s per week for Edna. Louisa had received a month's allowance in advance a week before Edna was killed - she was now being docked 1s 6d a week to make up the 21s 'overpayment' What Louisa or Arthur thought, is not recorded, but I can imagine a little industrial language. Mann ended up being invalided out of the Services in 1918 - he had never served abroad, but seems like he was a brave bloke that tried his best to ditch his plane safely. Ryecroft - great community spirit! Mr Mayor and the Council, well done! The RFC and the military, hang your heads in shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAFDean Posted 9 October , 2011 Share Posted 9 October , 2011 Graeme, If you are still interested in this incident let me know. I am the archivist at the Walsall Local History Centre and have the coroner's inquest papers regarding the incident. Indeed, it forms, along with another case, the backbone of a talk i do on the history of the Walsall Coroner. The Centre where i work is around the corner from Brewer St, where the crash happened. Mann actually shouted for people to get out of the way as his plane collapsed! If others are interested i will post it on here as well - i am sure i have written-up some account of it, so it is a cut and paste really. It is also interesting for how the RFC, the local ommunity and the Mayor of Walsall dealt with the incident. I wonder if they heard him! That is facinating stuff... I believe there may still be noe of these aircraft flying in the north of scotland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Dragon Posted 12 October , 2011 Share Posted 12 October , 2011 I wonder if they heard him! They did Dean, the witness statements of Louisa Vass and the publican both said so! - I think i know what i would have been shouting and i don't think it would have been 'run' - seems a brave bloke to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeClarke Posted 14 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 14 October , 2011 Hi Soup Dragon Just found your reply. yes I would be interested in the papers you hold, is it possible to have a copy please. Strangely, seeing as how the funeral etc was paid for by the military, the headstone now bears little relationship to the incident I also have a picture of Mann Regards, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Dragon Posted 14 October , 2011 Share Posted 14 October , 2011 Hi Soup Dragon Just found your reply. yes I would be interested in the papers you hold, is it possible to have a copy please. Strangely, seeing as how the funeral etc was paid for by the military, the headstone now bears little relationship to the incident I also have a picture of Mann Regards, Graeme Hi Graeme It is nice to see a picture of Mann, thanks. Yes, you can either call into the History Centre (i think you have been before - especially if you have read the Pioneer!) and copy what you want, or you can email in and our researcher will send you a form - it is cheaper of course if you can visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plattyuk Posted 21 May , 2013 Share Posted 21 May , 2013 Hi Graeme, Our paths continue to pass.... I've recently acquired the Great War Medals for Lieutenant Mann, whilst I try to restrict my purchases to Walsall Men I made an exception to somebody who crashed a plane on my home town.... There can't have been many air crashes in Walsall prior to this event, did you ever find anymore about this sad event? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeClarke Posted 22 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 22 May , 2013 Morning Mark Other than downloading Mann's service record, not really. Was there any documentation at all with your most magnificent purchase ?? Regards, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john-g Posted 22 May , 2013 Share Posted 22 May , 2013 I am not sure anyone has mentioned this but he has a WO339 record at the NA, WO 339/68231 2/Lieutenant Thomas Sydney Lanyon MANN Royal Flying Corps. You might find out more details about him in the file? John-g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plattyuk Posted 22 May , 2013 Share Posted 22 May , 2013 Morning Graeme, No just the service papers and a picture from ancestry. I've been to Essex St and copied the entry from the observer and a small mention in the pioneer. Obviously these are weekly publications, was there a daily local paper at the time, would the Express & Star have covered the crash do you think? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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