overseas service chevrons

[tony paley]

Just a general question really. My Grandfather entered France in February 1917. He was an RSM in the Royal Garrison Artillery. I have his service records, mic and unit diaries. these confirm service in France and Flanders until the Armistice. He then served with the occupying force in the Rhineland. I have several photographs of him during the period, including one taken in 1919 when his unit was at Whan near Cologne. On none of these photographs is he shown wearing overseas service stripes. Would this be a personal choice and some men didn't

bother. I am sure I have seen Officers and Warrant Officers wearing them.

Tony P

[dutchbarge]

Hello Tony,

Good question. A number (about half actually) of my osd jackets (all of whose original owners were entitled to overseas chevrons) do not have any OS chevrons on their sleeves. This includes several to officers who stayed in the Army for several years after the war. I have given these sleeves a good going over and it appears (in all but one jacket which at some point obviously had its OSC removed) that they never had any. I could see an officer having left the service at war's end (goodbye to all that!) not bothering to add the OSC, but officers wo served afterwards seem to be missing them also.

I'm sure another member will get around to telling us what the regs were.....but after many years of collecting it seems to me that the regs were more in the nature of a suggestion rather than any hard and fast rule to be obeyed.

Cheers, Bill

[tony paley]

Hello Tony,

Good question. A number (about half actually) of my osd jackets (all of whose original owners were entitled to overseas chevrons) do not have any OS chevrons on their sleeves. This includes several to officers who stayed in the Army for several years after the war. I have given these sleeves a good going over and it appears (in all but one jacket which at some point obviously had its OSC removed) that they never had any. I could see an officer having left the service at war's end (goodbye to all that!) not bothering to add the OSC, but officers wo served afterwards seem to be missing them also.

I'm sure another member will get around to telling us what the regs were.....but after many years of collecting it seems to me that the regs were more in the nature of a suggestion rather than any hard and fast rule to be obeyed.

Cheers, Bill

Bill, Thanks for that, so it does seem that not all those entitled to wear these chevrons did so.

Tony P

[Peridot]

Hi All

I wonder whether I could hi-jack this thread rather than start a new one as the subject matter is the same. Some Forum members will be aware of my continuing quest to piece together my grandfather's army service in the ASC in the absence of service records. I have his four overseas service chevrons and courtesy of another Forum member have managed to establish that he entered the army in early June 1916, having been a likely attestor under the Derby Scheme the previous December.

He went abroad to France after training and was likely already a qualified motor driver (I have a photograph of him at the wheel of an Edwardian Rolls Silver Ghost Limousine belonging to his employer) and thus likely had his training period shortened. I would therefore assume that he would have become entitled to his first chevron the day he landed in France, without a minimum time qualification and that his subsequent three entitlements would have been on the anniversaries of that first date. I have been told that the normal channels of training make it likely he would not have gone abroad until about November 1916. This, if my assumptions and information are correct, would have given an entitlement to the last stripe in November 1919 ( he was in Cologne for a time I think).

There is a spanner in the works of these dates though as my mother was born in mid-June 1920 and therefore must have been conceived round September 1919, meaning that my grandfather was back home and probably demobbed by then. It is not likely he would have planned a further child if he had time left to do in the army, which probably precludes him being home on leave only at the time of conception. This would infer therefore that he would probably have gone abroad between June and September 1916 if my assumption of the eligibility dates for the stripes is correct and meaning that he must have achieved eligibility between June and September 1919 and not November for the last stripe, probably shortly before de-mob.

Leaving aside my grandmother's gynaecological timetable are my assumptions re the stripes correct, meaning that I can

narrow down a departure date for France to probably either July or August 1916?

Thanks for any help.

Peridot

[Stebie9173]

Yes, your assumptions on the overseas stripes are correct.

It was, however, quite common for men of the support arms of the Army (ASC, Labour Corps, certain R.E. types, etc.) to embark to France with an absolute minimum of training. I have seen Labour Corps units especially going to France as units with their men having been in the Army only three weeks...

Steve.

[Peridot]

Thanks Steve and so it looks like he went to France much earlier-I think there is an assumption generally and I have made it myself before that there was some sort of standard 3 monthish training period before posting, which is clearly not the case. The assumption is certainly made in Norman Holding's books, who refers to "The time spent in England during training varied but could be as short as a few months".

However this information helps with another small piece of the jigsaw and may help to identify potential Units. Thanks again.

Peridot

[Peridot]

Steve-a thought occurred to me last night via my wife in that she suggested that my grandfather may have been on leave in September 1919 and then gone back to France for demob thus qualifying for the 4th Stripe by being in France in the November of 1919, as we had originally been told that this may have been the date of his first arrival in France.

I consider this an unlikely scenario as any leave round September 1919 was likely to have been de-mob leave and I cannot see that he would have been sent back to France for de-mob as I presume most left the Army from this country. Is this correct ? Also I presume that he would have had to be in France in the November to qualify for the fourth stripe then if that had been the date of the third anniversary of his arrival?

I know this sounds convoluted and it is further confused by Norman Holding's assertion in one of his family history books that even one days service overseas in a given year qualified for a stripe for that year.

Can you clarify the demob procedure and the further chevron query please?

Thanks

Peridot