12223 Pte. William Holmes

[Adam Llewellyn]

Good Day All,

Could anybody help with additional information to the following please?

William attested in Blackburn 27.08.1914 and had completed service with the North Lancs. Militia, reg No. 8228. His records show a date of entry with the 1st Battalion on the 27.11.1914 to France.

On the 26.05.1915 William was back in England with GSW chest and was listed as being Dangerously ill. He was at the Birmingham 1SG Hospital from the 26.05.1915 until 07.06.1915 and must have made a full recovery as he was sent out to the Balkans with the 6th Battalion on the 07.09.1915 and did not return home until 27.03.1919. He was finally transferred to class Z on the 07.05.1919.

Would William have received the gun shot wound at the Second Ypres? And if yes would anybody be able to help with any Battalion diary entries?

William's MIC does not mention his earlier date of entry with the 1st Battalion, it only shows that he was with the 6th Battalion and the date of entry as 07.09.1915 Balkans. After looking on the LLT site I have found out the the 6th Battalion were then transferred to Mesopotamia, so if anyone can help with anything else on Williams military service it would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards. Llew.

[sotonmate]

Llew

You might be struggling to find when this soldier was wounded if it isn't shown on his record. Is there no date shown for that,there often is in the section where he is first treated overseas.

The Battle of Bellewaarde (24/25 May) was nearest to the date you quote. Prior to that the Battle of Frezenburg 8 to 13th May. There is too every chance he was hit at any time between these two actions from the daily salvoes etc.

I doubt whether even the 1 ELR War Diary will show his name and day. It is digital by the way and you get an awful lot for 3.50,Aug 1914 to Jan 1918,with other Bns of 11 Brigade also. The ref is WO95/1498.

Sotonmate

[roughdiamond]

Llew

Hopefully this will be of great interest to you, there is a fantastic book called "Diary of an Old Contemptable" which covers the service of Edward Roe, an Ex-Regular called up to the 1st Bn East Lancs at the start of the war and it's in Diary format, he's wounded at 2nd Ypres around April 1915 and after recovery is posted to the 6th Bn in Gallipoli and then onto Mesopotamia with them till the end of the war.

I don't know if William Holmes is mentioned in the book but it parallels his service almost perfectly and will give you an insight into what he got up to, here's a link to it on Amazon with a synopsis, but you can check your library or other suppliers, trust me you'll be fascinated.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Diary-Old-Contempt...3078&sr=1-1

I'm at work on Night Shift at the moment but later today I'll have a look at the book and see if Edward Roe went to the 6th Bn around the same time as William Holmes.

Sam

[Adam Llewellyn]

Sotonmate,

Thanks for the reply, there is no casualty form with the service records and the dates listed were on his Military History sheet, but after taking a closer look at the papers there is a Post Office Telegraph which lists Williams name and number and then says, Received 19.05.15, relatives informed 9am 20.05.15 by telegram, so it looks like it was in between these two actions, thanks for pointing that out.

Sam,

The book sounds like the ideal reading material to get an idea on Williams Military service and I'll be putting it on to my shopping list. I would appreciate you letting me know if William is mentioned in anyway and if William Roe went to the 6th Battalion at the same time, thanks for your input.

Best Regards. Llew.

[roughdiamond]

Hi Llew

Had a look at the book and Roe

Arrived France 22/08/1914

Wounded 13th May 15

Arr UK 18th May 15

Dep for the Dardanelles 25th Oct 15

Arr Mudros 7th Nov 15 (embarked 13th)

Arr Galipolli 6th Dec 15 with reinforcements

Evacuated Galipolli 18/19th Dec 15

Arr Port Said, Egypt 22nd Jan 16

Arr Sheik Saad, Mesopotamia 13/14th March 16

Arr UK 3rd May 19, demobbed 6th may.

Unfortunately the book is 329 pages long so I can't tell you if William Holmes is mentioned, but he does mention his comrades regularly, so he maybe mentioned, I'm affraid you'd have to read it.

Something that will be of great interest to you is a photo #38 which shows 16 Men with a board that states "Men of the East Lancs who served on 3 fronts, France, Dardanelles and Mesopotamia", there is a good chance William Holmes could be in this photo, it does not list those in the photo, but if you contact the East Lancs Museum, they may have the original with a list of names, heres their web site: -

http://www.qlrmuseum.co.uk/East%20Lancashires.htm

Finally Roe describes being part of the firing squad who executed Pte Harry Salter of the 6th East Lancs for Desertion on 11/12/15 in Galipolli, one of the few first hand accounts from a firing squad member where the executed man can be positively identified.

Sam

[Adam Llewellyn]

Good Morning Sam,

One things for sure, the book goes to the top of the shopping list and i'll more than likely be having some late nights whilst following Williams Military Service, nothing new there then!!!!

I'll get in touch with the museum, and see if I can get any information on the mens names, it does look as if William could well be one of them, which would be great for me. I'll keep you informed on my progress, so watch this space.

Best Regards. Llew.

[CROONAERT]

Received 19.05.15,

The battalion war diary, unfortunately, only has a two word entry for this day at La Brique.... 'Quiet day'.

Dave

[Adam Llewellyn]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for that, would there be anything of interest either side of the 19th?

Best Regards. Llew.

[kenf48]

He was already at Rawlpindi General Hospital Wimereux, a major base hospital just outside Boulogne.http://www.1914-1918.net/hospitals.htm when the telegram saying he was dangerously ill was sent so it seems unlikely he was wounded on the 19th as he would have passed up the evacuation chain. That makes the 13th as mentioned above a stronger possibility, especially as his wound was recorded as a gsw to the chest - accepting it could have been a sniper.

Not too difficult to imagine he was wounded in action and evacuated, going through a crisis at the base hospital and then evacuated home as he started to mend.

Ken

[roughdiamond]

Ken

The wounding on the 13th was to Edward Roe who wrote the diaries that "Diary of an Old Contemptable" is based on, not William Holmes.

Sam

[kenf48]

Sam

I was referring to the first reply in the thread, that the Bn was in action that day at the 'Battle of Frezenburg'.

Unfortunately Geoff's (W) SE is still down but in the absence of the war diary (for now) SDGW shows a number kia for 13th May a few dying of wounds up to the 16th and then a few more kia on the 18th. I doubt we shall ever know when this soldier was actually wounded but on the balance of probability it was probably the 13th as he is unlikely to have progressed that far up the casualty evacuation chain in 24 hours - possible but unlikely. As for William Roe he was simply one of many killed or wounded that day.

Ken

[Adam Llewellyn]

Hi Ken,

This is the Telegram with the date on, its down to my assumption that William was wounded on the 19th.

Regards. llew.

[Adam Llewellyn]

Cropped version.

[ED-ROE65]

Hi im EdwardsGreat Nephew im glad you enjoyed his diaries

[Adam Llewellyn]

Hello Ed,

Do you know if William Holmes is one of the men in the photo by any chance?

Regards. Llew.

[ED-ROE65]

sorry liew i dont know any of the men in the photos in the book apart from my uncle

[Adam Llewellyn]

Thanks for the reply. After I get my copy of the book, i'll be taking Sam's advise and getting in touch with the Regimental museum and hopefully they may just have a list of names.

Regards. Llew.

[kenf48]

Hi Ken,

This is the Telegram with the date on, its down to my assumption that William was wounded on the 19th.

Regards. llew.

Apologies for any confusion, the second page of the telegtam shows it was 'received here at' (Holwood Barracks Preston) '2.45p.m.', and is date stamped 19 May.

The telegram sent via the War Office London from the officer commanding Rawalpindi General Hospital Wimereux that the relatives of two soldiers 'dangerously ill', be informed. The first Private 1223 Holmes 1st East Lancs G.S.W. to chest and the second 9913 H Booker Liverpool Regt G.S.W. to abdomen. This seems to be an administrative telegram and logistically it is unlikely either seriously wounded soldier could be evacuated from the battle field to a Base Hospital just outside Boulogne, in effect the last stage of the evacuation chain in less than 24 hours. As both seem near death and were wounded at different locations they would have been stabilised at a CCS first.

The LLT has French's eight despatch http://www.1914-1918.net/french_eighth_despatch.html which describes the action involving the 1st Bn East Lancs on the 13th May and then goes on to describe the next few days as characterised by ' desultory shell and rifle fire'.

Once again apologies for any confusion but to be evacuated to a Base Hospital he must have been wounded prior to the 19th.

(Private Booker appears to be Harold Booker 1st Bn Liverpool Regiment (2nd Division) who does not appear to have made such a good recovery and was discharged 5/12/17 and granted a SWB)

Ken

[Adam Llewellyn]

No need to apologizes Ken, I can only agree with what you are saying, thanks for the input.

Llew.